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Brexit - your vote and why?


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#751 mel2

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Posted 13 November 2019 - 23:33

I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself when I state that economic forecasts and projected balance sheets (largely speculative or from computer models) do not figure much in my thinking. FWIW I didn't buy the £350 million bus slogan; R4's More or Less programme calculated a figure of £190 million but I stop counting when I run out of fingers and toes.
What has incensed me has been the UK's lack of agency- having to ask 'please may we do this/that?' all in the name of a withdrawal treaty. I suspect it is this state of being petitioners for favour that outrages many and is behind calls for a 'clean break'. All this has been said before, I know.

Reading about Ursula Van Der Leyen and how she was appointed opened my eyes to some of the issues in the EU not related to Brexit. I sometimes wonder whether the idea of Europe held by many in Britain is a little idealised. (I'm trying to be polite) After all, we currently 'enjoy' the utopia of EU membership and it doesn't feel that great.

The barely suppressed contempt of the Church Times, if not the CofE as a whole, for those supporting Leave has been surprising to me, incidentally. How on earth this issue has gained a moral dimension is beyond me, and their withering words do little to explain, other than concluding that Leavers were misled, were lied to, and were stupid enough to be convinced by the lies. I wrote and reminded them that they offered no guidance before the referendum so would they please please spare us the censure. I suppose virtue signalling is to be expected from such a publication, but I mention this only to point out that if such guardians of morality leave me unmoved (and not a little cynical) then they must be using the wrong words.
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#752 elemimele

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 07:29

Brexit hasn't happened yet.

There's a real risk that because of the delay between the referendum-decision, and anything happening, people will start to think that Brexit hasn't caused all the problems we were told about, and it was all scaremongering - forgetting that this is still in the future. Most of the economic and practical problems won't start until after we finally leave the EU. Many of the effects will only happen quite a long time after Brexit, because of transition arrangements, and the lag-time while things make their way through the pipeline from cause to effect. By then it will be too late to make changes.

That is why we're reduced to guesswork and prediction. If we don't trust the predictions, it's because the situation is very complicated and it's hard to guess (which isn't very reassuring to those of us in precarious positions). Some, if not most, remainers are terrified by the uncertainty of what will happen, and who can blame them? The Government's guess on how long it will take to get a lorry from Calais to Dover, which is one of the simplest aspects of Brexit, are terrifying. Again, those who want to leave, at least, please, let's plan the whole thing properly. This isn't just an idealogical question, it's a very practical one. Our whole administration has, for decades, been built around being part of Europe, and it takes time to rebuild something like that. There are so many itty-bitty details: how do we import radioisotopes for medical treatment and imaging, can aeroplanes containing UK-made parts still land legally in Belgium?

And I know this is frustrating for those who feel we're having to ask favours of Europe, but it can't be helped: just as we want to choose our own rules about what comes into the UK, the Belgians have the right to choose what goes into Belgium. We can't unilaterally dictate the process of Brexit because we, presumably, still want to import French wine and export Wensleydale, and that means talking to the French and satisfying other countries that our cheese is safe. Dialogue is part of normal life, not a sign of subservience.

I'll reiterate: for a lot of us, this isn't about ideology, or making a stand in politics; it's a practical question concerning our families, livelihoods, jobs, and futures.


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#753 corenfa

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 12:10

The barely suppressed contempt of the Church Times, if not the CofE as a whole, for those supporting Leave has been surprising to me, incidentally. How on earth this issue has gained a moral dimension is beyond me, and their withering words do little to explain, other than concluding that Leavers were misled, were lied to, and were stupid enough to be convinced by the lies. I wrote and reminded them that they offered no guidance before the referendum so would they please please spare us the censure. I suppose virtue signalling is to be expected from such a publication, but I mention this only to point out that if such guardians of morality leave me unmoved (and not a little cynical) then they must be using the wrong words.


I'm not Christian but I'm shocked by that. It feels wrong to me that religious bodies have such a political stance.
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#754 Aquarelle

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 14:23

 

The barely suppressed contempt of the Church Times, if not the CofE as a whole, for those supporting Leave has been surprising to me, incidentally. How on earth this issue has gained a moral dimension is beyond me, and their withering words do little to explain, other than concluding that Leavers were misled, were lied to, and were stupid enough to be convinced by the lies. I wrote and reminded them that they offered no guidance before the referendum so would they please please spare us the censure. I suppose virtue signalling is to be expected from such a publication, but I mention this only to point out that if such guardians of morality leave me unmoved (and not a little cynical) then they must be using the wrong words.


I'm not Christian but I'm shocked by that. It feels wrong to me that religious bodies have such a political stance.

 

But do they? Not being in the UK and not having an enorous amount of time at the moment I may have missed something. But what I did get, as a general feeling, when I took a quick look at what had been said in the Church Tmes was that the general feeling of the clergy was that Chrsitians should vote responsibly and according to their conscience. I am not  a blind  supporter of organised religion but it seems normal to me that the clergy should ask people to think carefully about how they cast any vote for any election or referendum. I do not think they should tell their flock what to vote but it seems logical that they should point out that there is, indeed a moral issue in every vote. Why? Because when you cast your vote you are doing something that will affect the lives of  - sometimes - millions of people. You can cast your vote for your oxn personnal interests. You can cast your vote because you think further than that - about the interests of the community it will affect. You might decide to cast your vote in the opposite way tfrom  the next person  in the pew. that is not what matters. What matters is that each voter should try to be as informed as possilbe (not always easy as we know) and then should vote responsibly. Many  of course do.


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#755 thara96

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Posted 15 November 2019 - 09:03

 

 

The barely suppressed contempt of the Church Times, if not the CofE as a whole, for those supporting Leave has been surprising to me, incidentally. How on earth this issue has gained a moral dimension is beyond me, and their withering words do little to explain, other than concluding that Leavers were misled, were lied to, and were stupid enough to be convinced by the lies. I wrote and reminded them that they offered no guidance before the referendum so would they please please spare us the censure. I suppose virtue signalling is to be expected from such a publication, but I mention this only to point out that if such guardians of morality leave me unmoved (and not a little cynical) then they must be using the wrong words.


I'm not Christian but I'm shocked by that. It feels wrong to me that religious bodies have such a political stance.

 

But do they? Not being in the UK and not having an enorous amount of time at the moment I may have missed something. But what I did get, as a general feeling, when I took a quick look at what had been said in the Church Tmes was that the general feeling of the clergy was that Chrsitians should vote responsibly and according to their conscience. I am not  a blind  supporter of organised religion but it seems normal to me that the clergy should ask people to think carefully about how they cast any vote for any election or referendum. I do not think they should tell their flock what to vote but it seems logical that they should point out that there is, indeed a moral issue in every vote. Why? Because when you cast your vote you are doing something that will affect the lives of  - sometimes - millions of people. You can cast your vote for your oxn personnal interests. You can cast your vote because you think further than that - about the interests of the community it will affect. You might decide to cast your vote in the opposite way tfrom  the next person  in the pew. that is not what matters. What matters is that each voter should try to be as informed as possilbe (not always easy as we know) and then should vote responsibly. Many  of course do.

 

Good point! 


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