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What's Made You Happy Today.... ?


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#20641 hummingbird

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Posted 28 September 2019 - 16:25

No offence meant (well, maybe just a little...)

None taken (well, maybe just a little...) :D
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#20642 mel2

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 13:34

I found it!
Details at www.minimus-etc.co.uk and Cambridge University Press if any wish to inflict Latin on young children of their acquaintance.

Ever-helpful mel2.
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#20643 Banjogirl

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 14:21

I found it!
Details at www.minimus-etc.co.uk and Cambridge University Press if any wish to inflict Latin on young children of their acquaintance.

Ever-helpful mel2.

I bought a copy for my boys but I thought it was a bit rubbish.


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#20644 Banjogirl

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 14:24

 

 

 

 

Latin (red covers) and Greek (green). https://www.loebclassics.com/

Thank you, Gordon - your post has made me happily reminisce about my Latin 'A' level days... Catullus, Pliny, Virgil, Suetonius, Cicero, Juvenal ... aw, happy days  :wub:
 Ok.Anyone do Mesopotamian Cuneiform at school?Hate it when they opt for Latin words in choir for a church service. It's a chance for the grammar school types to puff out their chests but we may as well be singing Klingon for all the sense it makes for some.OH refuses to go when I say we've been rehearsing something like that.
Well that's me put in my place!(still happy reminiscing though :D )

No offence meant (well, maybe just a little...) But I have perhaps been put off any admiration for the Classics by the Oxbridge set in our choir who love to correct my pronunciation.
I could point out that their ostentatiously rolled 'r's in 'Requiem eterna' etc sound remarkably like a chainsaw but common civility prevents this. ;)
By the way, didn't someone in recent years devise a Latin curriculum with workbooks featuring a cartoon mouse? It's too random a circumstance for me to have imagined it! It won't have been cloth-bound, for sure.

 

I agree about the 'r's. You want to be able to hear what the word is but not sound like a load of pirates. Given that no one knows how Latin was pronounced then it's just a convention anyway. When my mum learnt Latin she was taught different pronunciation from how I was taught, and neither were like church pronunciation, and I doubt that any of them are anything like what the Romans would have said.


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#20645 fsharpminor

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Posted 29 September 2019 - 18:51

I have a horrendous (French)recording of the Faure Req, the Latin pronunciations is miles away from what I understand it should be, (though not of course like the classical Latin we were taught at school either)


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#20646 Aquarelle

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Posted 30 September 2019 - 14:31

The Fauré Requiem was sung at the mass for Jacques Chirac this morning.  It was very beautiful and the Latin was clear and pronounced as I have always understood liturgical Latin should be. It obviously wasn't the same choir as on F# minor's recording!

 

Our Latin mistress did explain to us that the pronunciation she would teach was not the same as liturgical Latin and that we should, when in Rome, do as Romans do -  school Latin in  school and church Latin in church. 


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#20647 elemimele

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Posted 30 September 2019 - 21:20

I must admit I find it rather hard to get excited about the pronunciation of church Latin, this feeling to me like a rather small corner of historically-correct-performance, and an area of dogmatic beliefs rather than any great thought. This is a musical forum, not a religious one, which tempers the viewpoint from which I'd write; I'll stick to musical!

Actually, the whole thing does belong to a bigger question: to what extent should we pronounce things "correctly" when we sing? Does it matter if the Latin is sung in a way that sounds a bit colloquial? Would it have been sung correctly by everyone, say, 100 years after it was composed, or would it by then, already be being sung in different accents and styles across Europe? In which case, whose Latin is correct today? Or is it more in the spirit of the music that this sort of variety was to be expected? Did monks in Dorset sing Latin with a Dorset accent? Should a song written by someone in Dorset be sung in a Dorset accent? If an American sings a traditional English song, should they try that Dorset accent? Or an 18thC accent? Or would that sound contrived and artificial, which might not be the correct feel for the song at all?

I'm not sure these questions are particularly useful, and I certainly don't have any answers, but before telling someone else that their Latin accent is wrong, I'd want to be sure I'd thought about them.


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#20648 SingingPython

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Posted 30 September 2019 - 22:07

I remember singing Haydn's Nelson Mass in a large university music society when I first went.  The conductor asked for germanic pronunciation of the Latin, as probably how Haydn would have expected it to be sung ...

 

Nowadays if I'm singing in Latin I await information on how certain sounds - especially "c"s and combinations - are going to be pronounced on any particular occasion!


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#20649 mel2

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Posted 30 September 2019 - 22:24

I blame Stephen Cleobury.
A clutch of souls in the choir I have just decided to leave pounce on anything that departs from how Kings College would do it. They are rather keen on RP, too. (Guess how they speak?!)
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#20650 Aquarelle

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 09:20

I can't really see that it matters that much as long as the particular form of pronunciation is agreed and followed by the singers concerned. You don't have to "speak"  Latin or even understand it  in the word for word sense  in order to enjoy the  settings of the  liturgical texts  for  which it is still often used. You only need to know which  text is being sung. if you know the Credo, the Ave Maria, the Gloria etc in your own language then it is easy enough to follow in  any other language. Here some of the mass is usually in French and some in Latin but it never bothers me. I know the meaning of the texts in question. It's not unlike  following the  Italian libretto of a Mozart opera. You know the plot, you follow the action, you know what the singers are saying. 

 

I also think that as musicians ( not necessarily, of course Christians) we should want to preserve some of the finest sacred music ever written - much of those pages being the setting of Latin texts. There will always be a snobbish element - people who "like" classical music, Latin texts, avant garde literature and painting etc just because it's the "thing" to do. Just like there are certain placers where it's the "thing" to be seen. Best ignore them and actually look at the forms of art involved rather than jump on or off the bandwagon.


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#20651 Dr. Rogers

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 13:00

I also think that as musicians ( not necessarily, of course Christians) we should want to preserve some of the finest sacred music ever written - much of those pages being the setting of Latin texts.

 

Dyed-in-the-wool nonreligious secularist here, and I 100% agree with you.  There is so much beauty in religious traditions from all over the world.

 

Sometimes I feel angry that the fine old religious music was denied me as a child.  The cult I grew up in deemed it sinful (the sin of popery - organs were very suspicious instruments).  I'm just now exploring that music as an adult.  For instance, Pachelbel's wonderful short fugues on the Magnificat.  I actually had to look up what the Magnificat was!


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#20652 Tenor Viol

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 14:48

The general view for singing in Latin is to use Italianate pronunciation these days as it's euphonious and after all Italian is one of the successor Romance languages. This differs from the way Classical Latin is pronounced, but how that is pronounced has changed over time (for example current practice is for Cicero to be pronounced rather like kicker-oh rather than sisser-oh).

 

I've been on early music workshops where they get rather obsessed about the absurd nuances between say Medieval German / French / English pronunciation of Latin. Now I can understand the need for some of it as with poetry it can affect the rhyme scheme, but generally, I think it's a little obsessive since in the absence of recordings, we don't really know.     


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#20653 Gordon Shumway

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 15:30

Hate it when they opt for Latin words in choir for a church service.

 

 

I could point out that their ostentatiously rolled 'r's in 'Requiem eterna' etc sound remarkably like a chainsaw but common civility forbids this. ;)
By the way, didn't someone in recent years devise a Latin curriculum with workbooks featuring a cartoon mouse? It's too random a circumstance for me to have imagined it! It won't have been cloth-bound, for sure.

 

The leader of our bridge club sang in amateur choirs and took up Christian Latin for that purpose.

Yes, the "littera canina" approach annoys me - the Romans and Greeks were very bad at explaining their scansion and phonology and what not, and it's obvious that you shouldn't take them literally and that Latin shouldn't be pronounced much less humanly than Italian (that could have got me into trouble - I'm not advocating all the soft c's and g's and so on used in the Catholic mass). (But I've never been able to roll my rrrrrs, so you can take that as sour grapes, lol)

The mouse is called Minimus.

 

If anyone wants to begin Greek, this is the book I recommend: it is designed to be used in conjunction with this grammar

And for Latin this series of five cheap books, but it was much easier back in the day when all the secondhand bookshops had them for pennies.

 

Another excellent Greek book is this if you like the old-fashioned approach, and you fancy an antique hardback gracing your bookshelf.


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#20654 HelenVJ

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 15:57

If you're singing with a group, you obviously have to go along with the consensus - but if there is no director or conductor, the debate can be interminable.

I do a lot of depping with various groups over Christmas and every time there will be a discussion about whether we're singing 'eye-oh eye-oh eye-oh' or 'ee-oh' etc.

I also remember the sense of disbelief bordering on outrage and indignation when Roger Norrington (in the eary days) asked us to sing A-min instead of Amen :).


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#20655 Latin pianist

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 16:27

And when did "eggshells" come in for excelsis? We didn't sing that when I was young!
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