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Brexit - your vote and why?


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#766 hummingbird

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Posted 24 November 2019 - 18:19

I really don't think all the name-calling is helpful. It also isn't helpful that quite often, fairly polite comments are interpreted as offensive.


Tortellini's comment may have been politely phrased, but the meaning was clear, and especially when it was ended with "wacko" emoticon.

 

There was some research recently that showed that only 2 out of 10 Brexiteers would admit to having voted Leave, whereas 8 of 10 Remainers would admit to their vote.  I suggest this is because Brexiteers know that many Remainers have no compunction about telling Brexiteers that they are racist, stupid and “little Englanders”.  I’ve had this myself in real life, not just on this thread.  I only picked up on Tortellini’s comment because I hadn’t heard this particular epithet before, which was quite clearly that I hadn’t got any morality in voting the way I did, which is obviously offensive, and as Tortellini hasn't denied it, it was clearly deliberately so.  But as I said, it's only what people who voted Leave have got used to from some Remainers, although being accused of these things, by people who have no respect for contrary views, does not make them true.


Edited by hummingbird, 24 November 2019 - 19:04 .

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#767 Tortellini

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Posted 24 November 2019 - 18:38

 

 

But this complaint, in my view, is most desperately undermined by their reticence to hold another referendum.

 I agree. I would like to see far more Brexiteers clamouring for a new, fair referendum now that we know that the original one was interfered with and thousands disenfranchised. However, it seems that that would not be democratic! 


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#768 Tortellini

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Posted 24 November 2019 - 19:12

Hummingbird - I really don't get the offense. The "whacko" emoticon was because I really don't see how else the facts can be interpreted. I was responding to a particular comment about the Church where another poster said that there isn't a moral dimension to Brexit. I really don't see how it is possible now (not in 2016) to argue that people aren't going to suffer because of Brexit - they already are. Whether or not you think there will be any long term benefits to Brexit doesn't take away from the fact that if you still support Brexit you accept that other people will suffer. Do you not think this is the case? Please bear in mind, I wasn't attacking you or anyone else on this thread but I don't see how you can say that we can't even mention this without it being deemed offensive. 


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#769 Tortellini

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Posted 24 November 2019 - 19:14

 

 

Tortellini hasn't denied it

Except I never said it. I made it quite clear that there is a difference to voting Leave in 2016 and still championing it and calling it democratic in 2019 despite everything that has happened in the meantime. So if we're talking about being offensive, I would say this is pretty unfair.


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#770 hummingbird

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Posted 24 November 2019 - 19:25


Except I never said it. I made it quite clear that there is a difference to voting Leave in 2016 and still championing it and calling it democratic in 2019 despite everything that has happened in the meantime. So if we're talking about being offensive, I would say this is pretty unfair.

 

The post in question didn't mention democracy at all.  This is what you said, in the context of the morality of voting for Brexit:

 

"If you are stil championing Brexit then presumably you are doing it because you think it will be worth it DESPITE the damage it will inflict on others, not because you think some people will miraculously benefit from losing their jobs, or having to reapply to stay in their homes.  :wacko: "

 

I don't see how that can be read in any other way but that you think people who still want Brexit are lacking in morality.


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#771 Tortellini

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Posted 24 November 2019 - 19:32

 

 

I don't see how that can be read in any other way but that you think people who still want Brexit are lacking in morality.

 

You seem determined to take offence - I said that there is a moral dimension - as there is in many voting choices but with Brexit we have the benefit of seeing how it is panning out in real time! So yes, I think if you still want Brexit then you must think it is worth it despite the damage it will inflict on others - which is what I actually said. Are you saying this isn't true?


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#772 Tortellini

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Posted 24 November 2019 - 19:38

(And for the record - I was talking in general terms, not about anyone on this thread. You are the one who has singled me out, put words into my mouth and then told me that I have offended you). (Deleted emoticon so that it wouldn't be misinterpreted. I do not want to offend ANYONE).


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#773 hummingbird

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Posted 24 November 2019 - 19:46

I used your own words, Tortellini, and you've just confirmed that you think it's immoral for anyone to still vote for Brexit, which includes me, therefore you must think I'm lacking in morality.  If you think I've misinterpreted that, then all you have to do is say that you don't think people who still want Brexit are lacking in morality but you haven't done that so I believe my interpretation is correct.

 

On the matter of not knowing what we were voting for, that is true of my Remainer friends who didn’t look into any of the facts about the EU and simply voted for the status quo.  My most vehement Remainer friend didn’t believe me when I subsequently told him that the UK was the 5th biggest economy in the world, and said it was a “myth” that the EU Parliament spent £100 million a year moving to Strasbourg for 4 days every month.  When he finally accepted that it was true, he said it didn’t bother him.  He’s one of the wealthier individuals in this country so clearly £100 million is not important to him.  But if we’re talking morality, I think it’s immoral for the EU to spend £100 million a year moving to Strasbourg every month, when that money could be spent on improving deprived areas, or any number of other worthy causes.


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#774 Tortellini

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Posted 24 November 2019 - 19:59

I notice you still didn't answer my question though.


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#775 Tortellini

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Posted 24 November 2019 - 20:11

I'm leaving this thread now but I just want to underline that I was pointing out that there is a moral dimension to Brexit. There is a moral dimension to a lot of things, for example:

- air travel

- dropping litter

- buying goods when you don't know the circumstances of their production

- driving a high consumption car

- etc etc

 

My point was that Brexit doesn't get a free pass! There IS a moral dimension to Brexit! The fact that you interpreted this as me saying that you personally are "lacking in morality" (YOUR interpretation not mine) speaks volumes.


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#776 hummingbird

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Posted 24 November 2019 - 20:12

See my previous post:

You talk about people who maybe face a risk of unemployment when we leave, but what about the people who are already unemployed, some long term. If you want to talk about the moral dimension, do you not have any compassion for those people?


And I notice that you haven't denied that you think that people who still want Brexit are lacking in morality.

Do you think it's moral for the EU to spend £100 million on the administrative task of moving to Strasbourg every month? That money could make a huge difference in whatever country it was spent in.
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#777 hummingbird

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Posted 24 November 2019 - 20:14

My point was that Brexit doesn't get a free pass! There IS a moral dimension to Brexit! The fact that you interpreted this as me saying that you personally are "lacking in morality" (YOUR interpretation not mine) speaks volumes.

So you include all the other people who want Brexit, but exclude me. Doesn't make sense, does it?
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#778 elemimele

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Posted 24 November 2019 - 20:14

Since the subject of the UK's economy and it's 5th/6th largest status has come up, some more statistics are in order.

Yes, the UK has the 6th largest GDP in the world, quite remarkable for the tiny island we are. Per capita it's only about the 22nd, but that's still pretty good.

 

So what is this GDP? An eye-watering 80% is the financial services sector in London. That is basically what we do: gamble in banking and currency. Our other big industries are the aerospace industry and pharma. Aerospace and pharma are both incredibly highly-regulated, international businesses. Unless you are covered by all sorts of regulations, you simply cannot export pharmaceuticals or airplane parts, so it'd be a jolly good idea to get these details sorted out before exiting the EU. I am not a banker, but given where our GDP comes from, the only conceivable financial reason for Brexit would be if there were some massive benefit to the financial markets. I don't know if there is? I'm pretty certain that if there is, the proceeds won't get spent in West Wales.

 

We are indeed a massive exporter of goods and services - but we're an even bigger importer. We depend on global trading - in both directions - more than almost any country in the world. So again, it's quite frightening to consider leaving the EU without knowing exactly how this is going to continue.

 

Tortellinin and Hummingbird, for what it's worth, I regard you both as highly moral people. Both of you care about what happens to people. You only disagree on how you see the profit and loss balance. And that's so complicated I'm blowed if I know what's right. But I'm scared!


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#779 hummingbird

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Posted 24 November 2019 - 20:19

Thank you, elemimele, I appreciate what you've said.
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#780 Tortellini

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Posted 24 November 2019 - 20:22

 

My point was that Brexit doesn't get a free pass! There IS a moral dimension to Brexit! The fact that you interpreted this as me saying that you personally are "lacking in morality" (YOUR interpretation not mine) speaks volumes.

So you include all the other people who want Brexit, but exclude me. Doesn't make sense, does it?

 

Thank you Elemimele!

 

Hummingbird - I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you're saying here. I think maybe you're confusing "having a moral dimension" with "lacking in morality" which I never said so please stop asking me to deny it. It would help if you would answer the question but I'm guessing you don't want to so I think we should just leave it.


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