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Pedants' Paradise


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#3331 Gordon Shumway

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Posted 21 June 2019 - 10:58

In French the T of Moet  is only sounded because of the liaison made between the final consonant T and the following word "et" which begins with a vowel. I(s as when you would say "C'est moi!" and you wouldn't sound the T but if you  I suppose if you are using the word "valet" in English you can take your pick - as the OED seems to say. Actually the rule isn't that strict in French either.

 

C'est moi -  you don't sound the T

C'est un livre - you sound the T

C'est Anne-Marie - you don't sound the T.

 

Nicely confusing - you do it by ear!

In a post I accidentally deleted, I said that I had only ever seen one French grammar that gave any rules for liaison, but it was about 100 years old and I got rid of it.

 

In addition, the word "pas" liaises in ways that I'd need explained.


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#3332 Aquarelle

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 17:55

In theory yes, in practice probably not. It's all a bit confusing as I said. But then most  French people would probably not just say "Moet." They'd say "Moet et Chandon".

 

The important thing is that whatever you say it will taste just as good!


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#3333 Sylvette

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 14:06

In theory yes, in practice probably not. It's all a bit confusing as I said. But then most  French people would probably not just say "Moet." They'd say "Moet et Chandon".

 

The important thing is that whatever you say it will taste just as good!

I went to a champagne tasting at Moet & Chandon a while back and they said that the T was pronounced because M. Moet was not French and the proper pronunciation of his name sounded the T.


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#3334 Aquarelle

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 20:05

Curious to know what nationality he was.


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#3335 Banjogirl

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 21:54

He was French, but his name is Dutch. Obvs.biggrin.png


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#3336 Gordon Shumway

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 05:56

Clearly you haven't looked him up in Wiki. Supposedly the Dutchman's name was LeClerc (!?) and the French king honoured him with the name Moet (!? did it come with an estate?) in return for services rendered against the English. The rest is then the supposition that he mispronounced moet (err, cos the French king didn't tell him how to pronounce it?), and if he did, we should, lol. That's why I didn't mention it yesterday - total hogwash possibly, and I can't be bothered to go there. Partly because none of it has any relevance to how to pronounce valet.

 

If you are in the mood for research, words like goelon/goelette, and so forth are Breton, so that may be a place to look.


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#3337 Gordon Shumway

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 06:31

Of course pedants can be wrong.

I have a friend who was a year above Nigel Farage in Dulwich College and he was a copywriter, so he vociferously fancies himself at English, but there have been at least three occasions when I looked something up in the OED and found that he was wrong about something. Indeed the crudest one was when he wrote "he didn't use to do it".

One of the functions of a top English school is not to educate its pupils but to give them a sense of superiority, I believe. They are taught, say it loud, and say it with confidence, and you can rule Britain even when you've never been an MP. (that's very basic social psychology)

I once saw a bluestocking shout down Jonathan Ross on the subject of far farther/further,farthest/furthest. I forget what her exact, supposedly correct version was, but the point was, it had been drilled into her, as had been the belief that she had the right to drill it into others.

I came across it later when I was reading Anglo Saxon. Afaicr, the original forms were the ancestors of "far, further, furthest" (the word doesn't exist in modern German, so we can't use their paradigms for assistance), so that could be deemed "the correct" version (and I try to use that version, as you don't come across as especially pompous when you do). But if you really go into detail with the OED, you'll find that the forms "farther" and "farthest", although they were originally erroneous, have been around for 700 years or more, which seems to me to be sufficient pedigree for them to be deemed "correct". But Google it and you will see people tying themselves in knots trying to explain the subtle differences in the way they claim they use farther and further and so on. And it gets worse if you include the Americans whose source is Websters.


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#3338 Gordon Shumway

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 06:39

Of course pedants can be wrong.

 

bluestocking 

 

The TV programme QI is infuriating because sometimes it can be wrong, but it is pedantic and convincing even when it's wrong.

 

I once had a tutor called Liz Cripps. I don't know if she is still alive. At the time (20 years ago) she was chief examiner for London University.

She explained to me that once upon a time she had been head of English at QMC, and that qualified her as a bluestocking in the original sense of the word.

QI's explanation of bluestocking was different, and I've seen a third explanation too.

Which would you prefer to believe?


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#3339 Gordon Shumway

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 06:51

Rather than be pedantic about "tell John and I", it might be a good idea to trace the history of the error. I'm pretty sure Compton MacKenzie was guilty of it.


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#3340 Maizie

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 07:17

As I've said before (possibly on this thread), the thing about names is that it doesn't really matter what you think, what I think, what the arbiters of pronunciation think - how a person says their name, is the correct way to say it.  It's their name.  The difficulty is with names too distant to have the person or a recording of them in existence.

I was introduced to a colleague with the surname Montague recently.  He says it Mon-tayg.  Another colleague has a son with the same word as his first name, and she's very clear that it's Mon-ta-goo.  With these people, I just have to remember not to use my default of Mon-ta-gew.


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#3341 Gordon Shumway

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 07:20

As I've said before (possibly on this thread), the thing about names is that it doesn't really matter what you think, what I think, what the arbiters of pronunciation think - how a person says their name, is the correct way to say it.  It's their name.  The difficulty is with names too distant to have the person or a recording of them in existence.

I was introduced to a colleague with the surname Montague recently.  He says it Mon-tayg.  Another colleague has a son with the same word as his first name, and she's very clear that it's Mon-ta-goo.  With these people, I just have to remember not to use my default of Mon-ta-gew.

agreed

 

P.S. It's been too long since I last saw my two favourite dance troupes on TV: -

https://en.wikipedia...e_Cholmondeleys

https://en.wikipedia...therstonehaughs


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#3342 Banjogirl

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 09:06

My dad had a friend called Sidebottom, who insisted it was pronounced Sid-ee-bot-tom, with the emphasis on the last syllable.
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#3343 Banjogirl

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 09:09

Clearly you haven't looked him up in Wiki. Supposedly the Dutchman's name was LeClerc (!?) and the French king honoured him with the name Moet (!? did it come with an estate?) in return for services rendered against Joan of Arc. The rest is then the supposition that he mispronounced moet (err, cos the French king didn't tell him how to pronounce it?), and if he did, we should, lol. That's why I didn't mention it yesterday - total hogwash possibly, and I can't be bothered to go there. Partly because none of it has any relevance to how to pronounce valet.

If you are in the mood for research, words like goelon/goelette, and so forth are Breton, so that may be a place to look.


Dunno what bit of Wikipedia you looked at. On the Moet and Chandon page it says 'Moët is pronounced with a consonant at the end (IPA: [mo?t]) ('mo-et') as the French-born founder's surname has Dutch ancestry.'
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#3344 fsharpminor

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 09:16

My dad had a friend called Sidebottom, who insisted it was pronounced Sid-ee-bot-tom, with the emphasis on the last syllable.

There were Shippobottoms in Yorkshire also.  I worked with some Smellies at one time , they would only pronounce it Smiley.


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#3345 Gordon Shumway

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 10:04

 

Clearly you haven't looked him up in Wiki. Supposedly the Dutchman's name was LeClerc (!?) and the French king honoured him with the name Moet (!? did it come with an estate?) in return for services rendered against Joan of Arc. The rest is then the supposition that he mispronounced moet (err, cos the French king didn't tell him how to pronounce it?), and if he did, we should, lol. That's why I didn't mention it yesterday - total hogwash possibly, and I can't be bothered to go there. Partly because none of it has any relevance to how to pronounce valet.

If you are in the mood for research, words like goelon/goelette, and so forth are Breton, so that may be a place to look.


Dunno what bit of Wikipedia you looked at. On the Moet and Chandon page it says 'Moët is pronounced with a consonant at the end (IPA: [mo?t]) ('mo-et') as the French-born founder's surname has Dutch ancestry.'

 

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Claude_Moët


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