Not everyone has the luxury of an organ at home and not everyone is able to play for services in return for the use of an instrument. (Especially beginners.)

What is the usual charge of the use fo an organ for practice? I ask this because I heard this morning that one church is charing £10 per hour for a very ordinary instrument - with no heating in the winter.

Barry Williams

TEN POUNDS???

That's disgraceful! I'm fortunate in that my church allows my pupils free use of the organ. I would think that a token gesture of something like £2 for a session would be reasonable, and would certainly cover the expense of running the organ blower.

Don't some churches want to encourage would-be organists?

Ha - good question.

Last exchange I had on the topic of charging students for practice, I agreed a nominal £2 a session with the then organist (who was never other than helpful and encouraging) in order to cover cost of electricity.

A few months later, this sum was disputed by ? vicar ? churchwarden? I can't remember now where the disagreement started - however I was told I was undercharging, and not to let people use the organ for less than £5 per hour. This was a few years ago - maybe around 2002-3. I don't know what it is now, so of limited help! but thought I would feed it in. I felt at the time that £5 was a bit on the steep side.

The church where I now sing - I don't know. I can perhaps find out. I have never been charged anything, but maybe if it was for students who have no church connection there could be a small charge.

I hadn't thought of that!

It's reasonable for them to want a bit of help towards maintaining the instrument, especially if they are not getting any other return for their hospitality in the shape of music. It could even benefit the student because they will want their moneys worth from the practice session and won't waste time. I would have thought a weekly charge would have been fairer, though. I haven't seen how fast the meter runs when the blower is on - it hadn't occurred to me to look, but it won't be much more than the lighting, will it? Our heating is on a time switch for the sake of the plumbing, not for my benefit.

It would be a pity to make the student sign in and out to keep an eye on their electricity consumption - but I get the feeling the building would be occupied anyway; they surely would not trust a stranger with a key.
I don't know what a reasonable charge would be, it might depend on how many other student there are. More than 1 in a parish is a glut!

Mel

St Giles' leaflet about finding practice organs suggests between £2 and £5 per hour as the going rate...and it says if you can't afford that you could offer to polish the pews or catalogue the choir library!! I think £5 per hour is too much, but I gave £5 a week to one church - anything to avoid playing for a service before I'm ready....

Thank you all for this helpful information.

Fortunately, I have an instrument (pipe organ - my wife would not tolerate an 'artificial one') at home, so I do not have the problem nowadays. Moreover, I have always been treated rather well by churches when I have sought use of the organ.

It must be very difficult indeed for beginners, especially if they are young, to afford to learn with not just the cost of lessons, but also of every minute of practice and not being able to offer to play for services until a suitable level of expertise has been achieved.

I recall with delight the cleric who refused to accept money for my use of the organ, saying that it was the church's contribution to my musical education. It may not surprise you to learn that he was never short of organists.

Barry Williams

One would have thought parishes might be delighted that a resource which is left unattended, unplayed and unloved for 95% of the week is of interest to students. A sign of the times or was it twas ever thus?

...indeed, and as I'm decidedly middle aged, the current fashion for mistrusting teenagers doesn't exactly apply....

I hope I may be forgiven for quoting myself from another thread on this topic ...

I gave up teaching the organ at a church ( where, incidentally, our family have been associated since the early 70s) a few years ago, because I had such problems getting permission for two adult students to practise.

"we can't have all and sundry / any Tom #### or Harry using it etc etc".

The students concerned were an ex-nun, and a semi-retired businessman. Both had been involved in music of some kind for most of their lives and were not likely to be any kind of liability.

I was tempted to ask how many people were queueing up for the post last time it was advertised.

Yes I, too, have had problems helping to arrange access to organs for students who have to travel quite a long distance to study with me. Several churches have been reluctant to allow people they don't know use their instrument and I had hoped that, by my being a fairly well-established church musician, I'd have been able to help. Unfortunately, clergy, churchwardens and organists are often only too willing to put obstacles in the way, or not even willing to respond to answerphone messages and email.

I've never been charged for using either church i practise at, and i dont think anyone else is, but i'm strongly linked to these churches (whole family married there, being christened there, gran being an organist there, attending regularly etc).

I haven't played at my local church recently, because the other post i took up a few months ago pays me for each time i do it, and pay for my travel expenses, and the church gets priority because the other church near me doesn't pay me.

The local church are having their PCC meeting tonight though, and are asking for me to come back, but have agreed to pay me per service so they can compete with the other church, and because i put a lot of effort into playing, and they didnt think it was fair (although i know that the main organist doesnt get payed, so i hope they pay her too if they pay for me ).

Sorry, i've rambled about unrelated things again! In short, i've never been charged for use of the organ or lighting/heating etc.

Jacob.

As I have said many, many times before and in my book, there is NO shortage of organists, only a shortage of organists willing to play for churches.

The reasons for the unwillingness of competent, trained and qualified organists are legion, but at least three of those are:

- the sort of situation described above, which appears not to be rare at all

- the rubbish music required by the clergy

- the lack of appreciation of hard work and effort

Please note that remuneration is not on this list!

Barry Williams

But should be!

I take your point Mr HG, but it is interesting that most organists are so devoted to their job that money does not come first - and they are still treated badly.

As I have commented elsewhere, it cost me far more to qualify as an organist & choirmaster than it did to get a private pilot's licence - something like three times as much, when one takes into account the cost of lessons, courses, examinations, etc. and I did not have to pay for practice time.

Barry Williams

I think it's the fact that they are often so devoted to their job which allows them to be treated so badly, and with such little pay.

After all, to quote St. Paul, "A labourer is worthy of his hire". I wonder how many churches believe that!

I think I'm changing my mind.
It's not reasonable to charge - it is a blood-sucking tactic akin to charging people to park when they visit their sick rellies in hospital!

An organ is in better fettle when played regularly (aren't we all?) and the building is seen to be in use. For goodness sake, some places are organising rotas for people to baby-sit the buildings, so they can keep them open.
There are still a few kept open but they are getting harder to find. It cannot be beyond the wit of some interest group or other, whether it be RSCM or Heritage Lottery to find some way of making these facilities available to those with a genuine interest.
There cannot be many churches not in receipt of an Heritage Lottery grant of some kind and isn't one of the conditions that the building/organ etc is used for the benefit of the community?
Does the 'community' exclude those having organ lessons, or is the charge levied to the student another requirement?

Mel

Perhaps some kind of 'register' is required where kindly organists/churches can notify interested parties that they may allow free access for practice purposes?

Yes, but at the church where I used to have lessons, those very same 'baby sitters' objected to the organ's being played while they were there!!!

Oh, tell me about it! I remember in my last church the local Cathedral organist doing one of the weekly lunchtime recitals at my place to give me a week off. He came in to rehearse and the woman on duty got herself into such a state about it that she was in tears and was 'phoning around any church official who she thought might be able to prevent it. Is organ music really so awful for some?

I have to say that personally I'm not over-fond of it...
*tiptoes quietly out of the organ forum*

I venture to suggest you've not had the sheer joy of experiencing it in the capable hands of a true musician...

Hmm... maybe not - do you know any?

Goodness, how tragic - I could have a little sympathy if it were a beginner like me making dreadful noises (I don't like them myself ) - but a cathedral organist???

Some people just need a good slap.

agree.....please bare in mind that some people have no understanding or knowledge towards the organ.... also, it depends what pieces were played during that time... some people like messiaen (i do!!!) but some hate him.

Messiaen!
I hadn't thought of that. Poor woman......!

In the church where Husband and I were married, the organist was reasonably adventurous in his choice of repertoire, which was also listed in the weekly news sheet. One Sunday morning listing was "Priere du Christ montant vers son Pere (Messiaen)" (it must have been around Ascension). We thoroughly enjoyed it, but the old ladies in front were heard to comment "It's music like this which puts people off coming to church".

Um, no, Grandma - that's guitars and tambourines and M*ss**n Pr**s*.

A previous Dean of Ripon had an excellent rule for public organ practice:

- loud music
- discordant music
- repetition

any two - never all three in public.

I would go further. Any practice that is worthwile is likely to be intrusive because it will be heavily repetitious, even if played softly. Beginners spend far too much time 'going through' a piece. Whilst this is important, getting technical control of the difficult passages is paramount. Usually, such passages usually comprise quite a small part of the score.

Bell ringers inflict their noisy rehearsals on all the local population. At least with an organ you can walk out of the church.

Barry Williams

I like this rule!

When I'm practising in a church I feel as if everyone's listening to my mistakes (even if there's no-one there!) - I need to take your advice about repeating the difficult passages instead of just trying to play through pieces - that will also help with the concentration and ignoring the surroundings - thank you

Something else occurs to me.

Usually I am alone in the building but not always and it is easy to get carried away. I have to confess that even in this sacred space I get cross with myself for ineptitude and the language can become really quite colourful.
I like to think the ghosts of past organists will understand, even if the cleaners are scandalised.

Mel

As I play for services at Chichester Cathedral, I am allowed free use of the organ at no cost.

I tend to practice during the evening as the cathedral is closed and you can play as loud as you like!!

"I like to think the ghosts of past organists will understand"

Has anyone had any spooky experiences in churches?

Barry Williams

Yes.

You've beaten me to it by about 2 seconds. That's exactly what I was going to say too. If only my rehearsal this evening had finished a minute earlier....!

There was a thread on this about a year ago entitled 'Windy Organist', but it was originally started because of how the imagination tends to work overtime when closeted alone in a church at night.

Mel

Well, go on then, tell us about your hauntings!

The obligatory link: http://forums.abrsm.org/index.php?showtopic=26261

Thank you, Deborah. I don't know how to do a link.

Nor did I until recently. However, if you notice, on the top right hand corner of each post there's a number which says something like "Post #01". Left click on the number, and copy the address which comes up. That will be the link address to that post. Paste it into a post where you want the link and Robert's your pater's sibling.

Well - you learn something new ...

I've always just copied the address from the address bar and pasted that.
Is there any reason why one works better than the other?

My friend, Peter, was the Organ Scholar at St. Georges Windsor a few years back, and he was warned about a previous scholar, who, late one night, playing with most the stops out became aware of a presence behind him. Bearing in mind all the dead organists, Kings, Queens, Deans and Bishops buried in the place, he slowly turned around, and jumped a mile high as he realised there WAS a presence behind him.
Apparently Her Majesty wanted to know who was making the noise, but to carry on as "If she wasn't there"

Yes. If you wanted to go straight to a certain post - say number 43 for example - without starting at the beginning of the thread, you can link directly to that post.

Oh, I see - if you wanted a link to one particular post rather than the whole thread. aaaaah. should have thought of that!