I am considering asking one of the priests at my local church (they all also are my school chaplains) if i can use the organ, to see if i can manage to play it, as I am a pianist, i want to see if id be any good at organ, etc. So are there any tutor books you can suggest? Im doing grade 3 piano, so can read music well.

any suggestions will be greatly appreciated!
HC

You'd really be better off getting an organ teacher so that you don't develop any bad habits.

There are a few.

Without having mine in front of me, I can't remember the titles but the author(s) are (I think, David Sanger, and Anne Marsden Thomas.

You will find numerous others both online and in any sizeable music shop.

Sometimes you want to try a thing out for a while before committing yourself to a teacher - I know I did.

Have fun

Mel

I really want to try it out, see if i like it first before comitting to a teacher

Ok. In that case, the two books by David Sanger which Mel mentioned are good tutor books but, of course, are meant to be studied with a teacher. What about occasional lessons, or an introductory lesson?

Good luck!

I don't suppose the organist at your church teaches the instrument?...

I don't know any good teaching books, but i would definately try and get a teacher, even if it's a monthly lesson, because it is so easy to fall into bad habits like Holz Gedeckt said. I've taught myself the organ, and i do have some very odd habbits, and have had to undo them all. Our organist at church helps me with technique from time to time, and has been shocked with some of the things i used to do! Undoing a bad habbit is incredibly difficult, and i'm still sorting some out now. I'm looking to start with a more permanent teacher, because a local organist heard me play and told my mum i'd be a lot better with lessons (not sure if he was complimenting me, or saying it out of pity!).

Good luck with your organ playing! I spoke to the organist at my church about coming in to practise, and she was fine about it, and now enjoys having weeks off, and we share the duties between us. I found it easy to find a church to practise, but this was only because i have been going to the church all my life, and the organist knew me from when i was in a pushchair!

Jacob.

Have forgotten to post:
Emailed one organist/chorister, am waiting a reply (for lessons)
am waiting to speak to another, who mom knows.


shall keep you posted!

I can only echo what the others have said really. You need someone to at least show you the ropes, otherwise you may be allowed into the church and spend the first day figuring out how to turn it on!

Ask a local organist if (s)he wouldn't mind showing you the basics. The thing I found with the organ is it takes a bit of time to get used to moving your feet. Until you can do that, you sometimes don't feel you are playing the full instrument, but don't be put off, stick with it for a while and you'll get better.

Last pennys worth, I was told I had to be grade 5 piano before I wanted to pick up the organ, that way you would have most the knowledge needed for the hands and could get going on the feet lol

I agree that someone should at least show you a few basic things rather than just rush in by yourself.
Organ exams begin at Grade 2, but the pedals are pretty simple until Grade 4.
I was always a grade behid my piano grade, eg I took Grade 6 piano at same time as Grade 5 organ. And Grade 8 organ the year after after ALCM piano.
I dont disagree you may be better being Grade 5 piano before you get into the organ, but in my case I was already Grade 5 piano before I could reach the organ pedals, so the first organ exam I did was Grade 5.

I agree with Keith.

I know organ teachers who require prospective students to play selected preludes and fugues from the Well-Tempered Clavier and Chopin etudes to a reasonable standard before starting the organ.

Yes, I've always held this view in the past based on received wisdom, but over the past few years have taken on students who have less than Grade V piano, and generally I have not found it to be a problem. It rather depends on the student concerned, of course.

It is interesting to see how views on this have changed over the years.

When I was at school my parents were told that I had to have at least Grade 7 piano (with Merit) before considering the organ, so that I need not be concerned about manual technique. In the event I had Grade 8 piano before I started the organ and a piano performer's diploma before I took Grade 8 organ. (I did not have my first piano lesson until I was fifteen years old.)

Nowadays, many people seem to start on the organ with very limited piano technique and work up the organ grades, rather than the piano grades first.

It seems to be generally accepted that one can have advanced organ technique and still have quite a basic piano technique.

Several top recitalists have taken piano to a high level and quite a few were first study pianists - George Thalben-Ball, Douglas Hawkridge, George Cunningham, etc. In more recent years Daniel Chorzempa and Roger Fisher have maintained dual pianist/organist careers, whilst Peter Wright of Southwark is a very fine pianist - and hides that light under a bushel.

I doubt if there is any single rule that fits all the circumstances, but if I taught organ I would be hesitant about taking any pupil with less than Grade 7 piano.

Barry Williams

I see where you're coming from, Barry, but if I applied such a rule then a) Several churches would be without practising organists in this part of the world, b) I'd have less income and c) I'd have lessened the rewarding experiences I've had teaching.

I think the hazard of having an expert peering over their specs at your piano technique is one of the reasons why a newbie organist would rather make their mistakes in private and discover some of the features of an organ by accident.

I still struggle with piano preludes and fugues (and I have a diploma) but have been doing duty at the console for over 12 years but am safely tucked away in a backwater - I suspect there are a lot like me. I would gladly hand over to another interested person but they do not come forward.

A teach-yourself book is there when you are, doesn't need an appointment and will not tell you off. There will come a time when you need informed human input but it's not like learning to drive a car - you are unlikely to kill anyone if you make a mistake.

Mel

Yes, but the skills of service playing are wide and significant. It is actually easier to play some quite complex organ music than accompany many services. Nevertheless, it does seem wise for aspiring organists to have acquired a secure piano technique before attempting to play an instrument on which accent is merely an illusion.

Barry Williams

I seem to remember that my first organ teacher wouldn't take anyone before we had passed grade 5 which seemed to be a good compromise. I would try to argue, that perhaps for many, grade 8 would almost be too late to try and distiguish between organ and piano technique. I seem to remember that I was always one grade behind in organ exams than piano, which suited me well aged 15+ as I could discern most of the differences between piano and organ technique on the manuals. I will be forever grateful for the rather dull, dry and academic exercises in Peeters 'Ars Organi' about finger substitution which were an important learning tool in this regard.

... you sound like my teacher - he's always using this one when I have a bad case of 'nerves' which is pretty much continuously!!

I've generally met with the grade 5 piano threshold when enquiring about tuition, although St Giles takes anyone who's willing to pay I think. I suppose when ABRSM organ exams started at grade 4, it made sense to be reasonably fluent in piano first, or one could take years before being able to attempt an exam, but now they start at grade 2 (and grade 1 for TGH) I should think one could start from scratch. I learned piano for three years (and passed grade 5) before starting organ lessons but I still spent a few months with books (principally AMT, CH Trevor and David Sanger) before having a teacher.

This thread is very interesting. There is a slight comparison with the Salvation Army wherein folk learn to play brass instruments, not to achieve musical expertise, but only to play the hymns and songs needed for their purposes. (I am not saying this is wrong - I am a great admirer of the Salvation Army.)

Quite a few of the people who learn the organ clearly do so not from a love of the instrument, but just to accompany worship. This requires different and separate skills from playing pieces as in the ABRSM syllabus. Indeed, if one takes into account the overall task it is almost a separate subject. It is good that the RCO, in its Cert RCO and other diplomas, deals with the skills needed to be a church organist, as does the Guild of Church Musicians in its A.Cert.CM and the London College of Music in its LLCM (Church Music).

Not all those who learn the organ have connections with churches or wish to accompany its services. The ABRSM grades, DipABRSM, LRSM and FRSM clearly aim at developing expertise as a musician playing the organ rather than as a church musician. One board member has described the FRSM as a recital diploma. I hope to take the LRSM soon and hope that the skills to be examined will have nothing whatsoever to do with churches.

The Cert RCO may be above the standard of some folk, but the Guild of Church Musicians provides some excellent stepping stones to a professional qualification in the FGCM, though it is necessary to have a church post before one can sit the Guild's examinations.

Barry Williams

This is what I've found since starting to play. I wanted to learn the organ because I love the instrument and its music, but for most of us late beginners (late 50s in my case) with very little musical experience, the only possibility actually to play in public would be in a church service. I don't have any connection with the Church, hence have found it very difficult to find a practice pipe organ, but have started thinking about hymn playing etc and am finding it increasingly difficult to find the time to keep up with developing both strands.

Have you come across the hymn tune arrangements by Janette Cooper? Simplified arrangements of hymn tunes, much more straightforward to play, and retaining original harmonies. Learning some of these arrangements should swiftly improve your repertoire of hymns, and allow you more time to learn basic organ technique.

Thank you for this - I hadn't heard of Janette Cooper's arrangements but will have a look at them (I'm addicted to the NEH, that's my trouble!!)

...have bought it for £4.34 in p&p!!

Good, I think you'll find it very worthwhile. I've recently bought a copy for one of my pupils on a second-hand stall (for £2.50 ) and she is utterly delighted. The arrangements are really good. I hope you'll enjoy them. Have fun! G

It is always useful write out difficult hymns (e.g. Howells' 'Michael') on three staves. Once done you have it forever.

I have written a number of hymns out with the parts inverted, so that the melody is in the tenor. Doing this at sight is usually not difficult, but when one comes to tune such at 'Cuddesdon' or 'Wolvercote' a little re-arrangment is needed. It really is worth taking some trouble over this sort of thing for special effects, such as a solo Trumpet in the tenor for one verse.

It is far better to play hymns in Janette Cooper's arrangements well than to make a mess of it from the hymn book. Hymns appear easy because they are usually laid out on two staves, but many are in fact very tricky to play, even as organ pieces, without the added problem of a congregation singing along.

Barry Williams

Why do you find that so, Barry? I find that, at times, three staves are just too much for pupils to concentrate upon.


I'd have thought that Wolvercote was tricky enough as written.... Ok, there are those of us who can read it as written (although I must confess that I find it rather fiddly), but I would think that those who struggle with it would find it even more tricky with the tune placed in the left hand. Undoubtedly, the congregation would too unless there was a strong Tuba stop to help.



Hear, hear!

I write from my own playing experience, not for the benefit of a pupil. (I have only ever taught harmony, counterpoint and analysis, not organ, singing or horn.) However, Janette Cooper had a few of my three stave hymn scores and gave them to a couple of her pupils. It was discussed in, I think, Organists' Review, some years ago. I do not know if they were helpful or not. If three staves are too much then probably the person should not be attempting to play the hymn at all.

Wolvercote and Cuddeson are superb with the melody in the tenor, though I agree they are not easy - few of Ferguson's tunes are. They are such splendid music and he had so sad a life.

We seem to agree that hymns are not always easy to play. It is the jump from organ pieces to hymns that the teacher has to make with the pupil. As many pupils essay to take organ examinations there is less incentive to learn to play hymns, for the playing of hymns does not feature in any organ examination, though it does appear as a test in a few church music examinations. I would be interested to know at what grade an organ teacher would start a pupil on hymns.

Regrettably, bad hymn playing is endemic. Even when it is competent it is often extremely dull. Worst of all though is the home-made last verse harmonies beloved of some players and now available in dreadful books. I have been to services where every last verse has undergone a harmony mangle!

Barry Williams

EDIT: PS A Board Member has very kindly pointed out that the Cert RCO now requires hymn playing as part of the syllabus. Is it time for the ABRSM to include hymn playing in some grades?

Overdone, or done badly, last verse reharmonisation (in fact, not necessarily just the final verse) can be a menace. Done judiciously, it can give a splendid lift and can mitigate against the potential dullness of which you rightly complain.


No!

Its amazing how all organists seem to have a blind spot for the odd hymn. I know one very competent organist for who Repton was a nightmare. For me, Wolvercote is the one I always seem to trip up over. However, it isn't acknowledged by many people that hymns are in fact, quite hard to play properly. Even if the notes fall under your fingers, the element of leading a stray congregation can be like taking jellyfish for a walk for some people.

Last verse harmonies really do divide the organ community, I believe I compared them to Marmite when reviewing one of the publications you refer to. Personally, I can't stand the books, I think that if you want to do that kind of thing, (and I am a big fan, make no mistake, an inspiring last verse arrangement can inspire and lift worship in a very positive way) then you ought to be able to do it yourself, on the spot. Virtually all of my last verses are my own, I have borrowed the odd chord progression, but I like to think they should be as personal as an improvisation, not pre-determined.

I have mixed feelings about the AB and hymns. Other instruments do have instrument specific tests in the higher grades (brass transposition, hpshcd fig bass etc.), and organists do a pedal study already as part of grades 6-8.

Join the club! Wolvercote is the one which I find requires 100 percent concentration. Thornbury also comes to mind as rather tricky, but not quite in the same league as Wolvercote.


Yes, mostly agreed, as long as they're done well. Some off-the-cuff reharmonizations can go badly, and there's nothing worse than being on the receiving end. I do use one book from time to time - the book by Noel Rawsthorne - but tend to use this as a basis for reharmonization rather than playing all the printed notes in the arrangements.

I find that I already have in mind my own "last verses" for a number of hymn tunes and tend to play those with little alteration between playings. Does anybody here do the same?

Sorry, not an organist, but this did make me laugh!

You and me both!

Yes, I have probably been guilty as Barry describes very occasionally of being down a harmonic cul-de-sac and the only exit route has been a poorly executed chromatic hand-brake turn.

Yes, on your last point, they are in my head, but I would be loathed to write them down as I don't think I ever play them exactly the same twice in a row. Does anyone else go for the rather distasteful 'up a semitone for the last verse' circus trick. I'll get shot for saying so, but I do for two hymns, and two hymns only.

you are on top form with the analogies tonight!

Yup, 'fraid so, and a little more frequently than you (and generally up an entire tone), I must confess. Adeste Fidelis at Midnight Mass always goes into A for the last verse, with Willcocks's wonderful reharmonization too!

Occasionally, if the offertory hymn is short, I do bridging passages between verses, and have each verse in a different key. It keeps me amused, but I doubt congregations really pick up on what's happening.

Which are those two hymns, then, Monsieur?

We do it (I say "we" because I can't do it, I try to transpose and then everything falls to pieces and I turn into a wreck. So really, I should say "Our organists do it...") for the tune St. Clement. That works well, and then I do it for Moscow as I have a piece that is based on the tune and actually has the key change written in, so i just steal it
I don't think i'm incapable of writing my own harmony for a last verse, I fear that something would explode (probably me!). Though, I do tell a lie, I have my own arrangement for St. Denio (as it's so simple )

How do you effectively reharmonize St. Denio? I find that the weak melody (with an obvious harmonic structure implied to underpin it) just leads me to an inevitable load of diminished sevenths....

Hmmm I don't think I use a diminished 7th in it (can't think off the top of my head, plus it changes every time I play it) but mostly it's the pedal line I change with the rest being similar to the original tune (with some exceptions). The main change is the last line where I do a pedal line which I can only describe as 'similar fashion to Parry's Laudate Dominum' but on a much smaller scale

What is the best 'written out' verse reharm you have ever come across?

Jesus CHrist is risn today on Easter Morning, symbolic raising of a semitone to do with being raised from the dead. It does mean an eye watering F for the congregation, but they always rise to the occasion. As they do in my other tune, Blaenwern, my favourite tune and one of my better last verses (along with Diademata with a very sneaky German 6th in the middle.....now I've told you all, you'll all give it a go, I do also do a fanfare in front of that particulr tune as well).

I do one for St Denio, but its not too adventurous. If you want a butt-clenchingly chromatic one, Francis Jackson's own last verse to his own hymn tune, East Acklam is worth a look. It is the supplement to NEH.

On the subject of last verses, I bow to the master JSB, who I gather from history could barely play two verses of a chorale without harmonising it differently. If you think that reason a little tenuous, then look at his harmonisations in the Passions where he takes the same chorale melody and harmonises in different ways, to reflect perhaps a different emotion in the text?

Ouch!


Interesting coincidence here! I composed a last verse harmonization of Blaenwern for a friend's funeral a couple of years ago, and still use it. Diademata is actually one of the hymns which I sometimes take up a semitone into E flat for the last verse. Blaenwern seems high enough anyhow if it's played in G


I'll look up that one.


Yes, indeed!

Bach's reharmonisations of chorales during services did not meet with universal approval.

The consistory, when it had finished with the matter of his unauthorised absence from duty for four months, (to hear Buxtehude,) took him to task for his hymn tune variations, which were said to be 'surprising' and 'many strange sounds'. That is entirely apart from the pther complaints of visiting a wine bar during the sermon, failing to take choir rehearsals and improvising over-long preludes to the hymns. The incident of the introduction of a strange lady into the music department came later.

I was interested in Mr HG's playing of Diademata in D major. I always transpose it into E flat major or E major. D major seems awfully low, but as a high tenor I might not notice!

Interludes between verses can be very exciting, even when done softly. The late Maurice Bevan's fine tune 'Corvedale' (to appallingly bad words) is an excellent example, though the interludes have been removed in Common Praise, which is a pity, for they are very uplifing for the congregation.

In respect of last verse harmonies, having 'sat at the feet' of the ultimate master of this art, I rarely essay my own. When in the congregation I find almost all such reharmonisations distracting and I notice that they often discourage the singing. Fanfares between verses and, indeed, on long notes at the ends of lines, are another matter. Organists who do spontaneous rehamonisations in services and get themselves into a modulatory mess have no excuse. There are plenty of books around and one or two are quite good - not many though!

Barry Williams

I'm indebted to you for this one, KWO. I don't care how cheap the trick is if it works and thanks to you I now have a couple of hymns up my sleeve I can transpose at sight at more than a quarter speed. In fact I shall bear this in mind with others in flat keys!

This has been one of those threads that makes you feel like chucking it all in.

So far my tactic with hymns is to gradually introduce a little more welly as it goes along and for the last verse, to hoik out the rest of the couplers and give it some oboe and clarinet - it makes the congregation sing louder if only to cover up the row. Crude, possibly, but seems to work.
Except for the 'still small voice of calm' which has been discussed before and I still can't get right.

Mel

Yes, low for choirs, but congregations seem happy not to have to go above a D!


Yes, that's something I've recently come to realize.


Badly done, yes, they can throw the singing awfully. However, I notice quite the reverse in the singing from the congregation when I throw in some spice for the last verse....

The phrase 'O still, small voice of calm' is interesting. The hymn comes from a poem by John Greenleaf Whittier (1807 -1892) entitled 'The Brewing of Soma' and is addressed to Indians who were addicted to the drug-like substance of that name.

This is Whittier's heading to the poem: "These libations mixed with milk have been prepared for Indra: offer Soma to the drinker of Soma.”

The interpretation put on the words when it is sung as an hymn is not borne by the original. It is always tricky to handle the stops changes for this one. Without pistons it is almost impossible - but not quite!

Ought we to change stops during hymns? When in the congregation I find that the bland 'no change during a verse' style very boring. Something that follows the words is much more interesting, provided that it is not overdone.

EHT always sang throughout every hymn so that he got the phrasing into vocal style.

Barry Williams

oh what have i started

We're still watching you, hc. Have you asked Santa for those books yet?

Santa is being asked to hurry up and speak to the vicar...

i'm ok as long as it starts in D, or something with sharps, so that I can transpose it into something in flats (so D to Eb - my favourite key ) [EDIT: Though the St. Denio I was thinking of is actually G to Ab oops]

I treat a hymn like a psalm usually, have a look through before playing it (with me, that's usually about 2 weeks practising it ) and add 'colour' to the words. I was given a quick lesson how to do this in psalms by Peter Stevens (he's currently at Kings College, Cambridge) and I am eternally grateful as it makes things much more interesting IMHO.

Its interesting to note about the keys in which hymns are played and how they seem to be slipping over the generations. Diademata has always been in E for me, but modern hymnals do put it down to D. Blaenwern in my childhood hymn book was in A flat, but some hymn books have it in F! I recently reviewed a disc that had Lux Eoi in D, which means an even more eye-watering, butt clenching F sharp (!!) in the last line. However, lots in a large enough congregation will give that a good go with plenty of support from organ and choir. Others that appear to have slipped: Aurelia (D instead of E flat, or even E), Cross of Jesus (F instead of G), and Dix (preferably in A flat, but tendancy to sing it in G these days).

Part of the problems stem from school singing (what there is of it!). I have a job convincing our organist to keep the pitch up in hymns. Most teenage boys are baritones, not basses, and anything around C or D below middle C is always muddy.

In the Mayhew hymn books, Diademata is cast in C major, so D would seem positively stratospheric to them!