There seems to be a marked difference between the time needed to practise piano and what I remember from the same stage on clarinet (I'm a beginner of 3 mths).

I gather at my stage, 30 mins a day is supposed to be sufficient but I don't see how on earth that's possible. With clarinet you just get legato and staccato scales to practise, and only one octave because you're restricted by "the break", but on piano each scale and arp is doubled for a start, for LH and RH, you don't get chords to practise on clarinet, and I didn't do drills on clarinet. That's without contrary motion and similar motion.

My teacher says I don't need to do everything every night, but if I only spent 30 mins a day on practice, I'd only be working on something like a 7-day cycle, so I'd have forgotten everything by the time the cycle came round again. And I haven't even mentioned pieces - LH, RH, hands together, without pedal, with pedal...

I'd like nothing better than to spend all day every day doing piano practice, which is what seems to be needed, but life gets in the way unfortunately....

So how do you manage your time??? And I'm a beginner - I'm only working on 10 scales/arps but multiply that by all the variations (LH/RH, Leg/Stacc), and that's actually 80 variations of scales and arps to practice What happens when the number of scales/arps increases???

How do people manage to practise everything without it taking over your life

The "advantage" of beginning on a wind-instrument is that practice-time is self-limiting due to the physical demands of the instrument. (This is what I felt about the oboe anyway). With piano there is no real reason why you should stop and, as you say, you have to impose your own limits.

On the other hand, the huge advantage of the piano is that you don't have to get it out and put it away. You can practise a couple of piano scales/exercices while waiting for the kettle to boil (substitue any other mundane task) when you realise you're ready five minutes early etc.

what grade are you at on piano just out of interest?

I dont do the scales on the syllabus, well i mean i do, but my teacher teaches me new ones every week, we do chromatic scales beggining on any note, so thats already 12. In similar motion, hands sep. hands together, contrary motion, legato, staccato, accented beats, crescendoing. so thats what... 108?

:S Yes it is difficult, but we have very little fingering to remember, its mainly the same for the majority of scales.

Arpeggios i find easy, just look for the chord and thats it for me.

It might help to slow things down a bit and get 2 or 3 well known before adding more.
At the beginning I only learnt a new scale when the previous one was well known.
I'd probably use chords as an introduction to arpeggios/broken chords. Another reason might be if learning to add a basic harmony to a melody line.

When it does increase (maybe around grade 2 level?) that's the point I usually suggest that a rota system might be a good plan.
At grade 8 I found that on half an hour a day I could easily cover everything over a 4 day cycle.
One thing that helped I think was that I didn't count every permutation as a separate scale so that gave me (at grade 8) 8 majors, 8 minors plus the extras.

Not 12?

Can you practise every scale/arp/whatever every day, but only in one or two of its forms (making sure you share out staccatto, legato, LH, RH etc between the scales).

I find that this sort of idea works, as, for example, the staccato used on one scale is going to be much the same as that used on another scale, and the finguring of a scale will be the same regarless of articulation etc, so while you're not practicing every scale, you are practicing every skill.

Hope that was hopeful

No... there were only 8 at grade 8.
And I did contrary motion too even though that's not on the syllabus at that grade.
I decided that since I'd taken so much time getting them sorted I wasn't going to drop them.



Staccato is not usually needed until at least grade 6 (not that that is any reason not to learn how to do staccato scales sooner).

^ thats what i thought also

I know that, but Skylark mentioned them in her post, so I assume she is learning them already. You could equally say scales aren't needed at all until grade 1

Grade 0 - I've only been learning 3 months.

And yes, the scales do make more sense than on clarinet, although I wouldn't say there's very little fingering to remember, but maybe my memory's just not as good as yours


Yes, I think because I've been going back each week with a scale "learnt", my teacher's given me another new one, and seeing as I like scales, I'm only too willing to oblige I did ask my teacher a couple of weeks ago not to give me any more new ones for a while. I thought I knew them, but I've realised this week that I've slipped into making the fundamental mistake of practising the scales in the same order every time - and now I've tried to put right my mistake by randomising them, it's come to light that they're not as secure as they should be

In order to get out of the routine I've got into, I've done slips of paper for each of the scales to pick at random. So I've got 40 slips of paper for 10 scales (RH/LH, leg/stacc) Maybe this wasn't the best of ideas...


Yes that would definitely be an improvement


I didn't realise that. My teacher gets me to do staccato but maybe I'll drop them down the list and not practise them as often as the legato.


Thanks for your comments everybody, it's put it all into more perspective

I think that the length of 'useful' practice time is dictated not so much by what level one is at, but how long one can keep ones concentration. As others have said, there is far more to learn than can be easily accommodated in a set, short, period. As a musician already on another instrument, and not a child or a teenager, I think you could usefully practice at least an hour a day without losing concentration, more if you can find the time. The secret is to stop and do something else when one is tiring. Hope this helps.

I am finding too many scales to practise at Grade 6 too, compared to Grade 5. Two sets of minors (melodic & harmonic), staccato, contrary motion diatonic scales and chromatic scales, chromatic scales, diminished 7ths. I used to be able to practise the full suite of scales and arpeggios everyday for Grade 5, but now I can't do the same for Grade 6.

To work through it, I went through the scales & arpeggios for one key a day. E.g. Db major, C# minor melodic & harmonic, Db major arpeggio, C# minor arpeggio, hands separate and hands together. Then I practised everyday what I have problems with e.g. staccato, diminished 7th, contrary motion Eb minor.

Last night, I decided to do the whole suite of arpeggios as warm-up.

I think you might want your teacher to mark down for you which scales you always have problems with. Tackle those first, and add in a few from the "OK" sets every other day.

Hi Skylark,

My pupils at your level all have a scale list. They are set one scale every week and only move on to a new one with the given ones are known. Every six weeks I ask them to review all the scales we have done over the preceding weeks. That way the scales are known but don't take over the practise! My students are all children and most of them wouldn't be interested in loads of scales every day.

It sounds like you have a lot of scales for a beginner!

Best of luck.

I was told yesturday by my science teacher about concentation. Apparently, theres been a study on how long the average adult can keep concentration, and where the cut off limit is where you will begin to stuggle with concentration.

Apparently, the average adult should be able to concentrate properly for about 45 minutes, and take in new information, but after that, it will become much more difficult to concentrate. Then, after a 15 minute break, you should be able to carry on for about another 1/2 hour before you should stop again, and gradually, the time you can concentrate on learning new things decreases.

I'm not too sure whether this information is right, but what i've mentioned only applies to learning new things, and revising topics (we were told because we have mock exams after half term, and have been given revision tips).

I was also told by my Geography teacher that to learn something properly from scratch out of a text book or something, you need to go back to the same text 3 times for it to go into your long term memory. After first attempting to learn, you will only take in about 60% of what is there, after the 2nd, about 75%, and then on the third try, you should remember over 90% of what is written.

Again, i'm not entirely convinced by what my teachers have said, but it's interesting anyway, and may have some rough truth behind it!

Good luck with your piano playing, skylark, it's a fantastic instrument, in my completely unbiased opinion!

Jacob.

I agree with pianodub - and I do the same with all pupils whether adult or child.

Also, I'm a bit confused with your playing a piece LH, RH and then together. Once it's good enough for hands together we drop the hands separately unless a particular few bars prove awkward and then just that little bit gets extra treatment.

And also interested in you using pedal although you're pre-grade 1, although a little pedal may be introduced then sometimes.

scales can still be asked hands seperately at any grade. At grade 5 I was asked for one hands seperate

[quote name='Susie' date='Oct 23 2008, 07:32 PM' post='753190']
[quote name='pianodub' post='753073' date='Oct 23 2008, 12:19 PM']

Also, I'm a bit confused with your playing a piece LH, RH and then together. Once it's good enough for hands together we drop the hands separately unless a particular few bars prove awkward and then just that little bit gets extra treatment.

And also interested in you using pedal although you're pre-grade 1, although a little pedal may be introduced then sometimes.
[/quote]

This is interesting, I have just been on an Adult Piano Course run by concert pianists. A tip for practising was to play your pieces through slowly with hands seperate even if you know the piece. By doing this and also practising the piece from different start points, only then could you be secure in your piece.

Regarding the pedal, I remember my teacher introduced it quite early on for me too.

ET

Hi Skylark

When I first started the piano my teacher just gave me a few major scales to practise and one minor, the minor was D minor and this scale is deep in my brain, the reason - my teacher said that this scale the children always say it is across the bridge, so I always think of going across the bridge.

We used to do hands seperate and similar motion and contrary motion and as I learnt them she actually got me to do them 3 octaves. When practising I would go right up the piano. We never spent loads of time on them but maybe every few weeks have a lesson spent on them. I did a few scales at home as a warm up before playing.

Because I am now working towards my Grade 4, I got a shock of all the scales and arpeggios that I have to know. Like yourself I knew all the scales for theory but playing them on the piano was a different story as I couldn't think just like that where they were. I now just do the 2 octaves as that is what I will need to do for the exam.

However, after 2 weeks I now know all the scales and arpeggios inside out, so I wouldn't worry because they will all come to you and stay. Playing staccato scales is a good idea, my teacher has always done this with me too, quite often she would say on the way up staccato and come back down legato.

Interestingly, playing the scales staccato can also help when you get to demi semi quavers. Whilst on my piano course last weekend, the teacher suggested that I did staccato to help me get the feel of getting my finger up quick enough for the demi semi quavers.

I now find that I can do all my scales, arpegios and pieces in a short time, it could be in under half an hour, I haven't actually timed myself, but I tend to spend much more time on the piano than that.

The more you do them, the miore likely they are to stay in your brain. At least you know your scales from the theory, when I first started them I was working blind.

ET

I'm doing Drink to me Only which is the first piece which uses the pedal in Michael Aaron's book. I'm not following the Grade 1 syllabus as I'm probably not going to take the exam, so I guess my teacher just gives me whatever he thinks most appropriate


I agree!

Thank you everybody for your comments. It was interesting reading about concentration. I'll take on board what you've all said and see what I can do to cut the time down

I just saw your second post ET, thanks, and it made a lot of sense and yes it's a big help knowing the theory for scales

Scales come much more easily when you're able to pick them out by ear - and then think about fingering. The more repertoire you've played in different keys, the easier scales will seem. Some people think the scales make playing the pieces easier, but having not played any scales till I decided to do my first exam (Grade 8) as an adult, I was entirely the other way round.

So my suggestion for saving time in your practice is to do what I did and stuff the scales for now (you can learn them later if you want) and just play music!

I would agree with that! My beginners don't do scales at first...I think there is enough to think about without adding that in! When they are very at home with the keyboard, after a year or so we start learning a few, but I never send someone home with LOADS of scales unless it is the last few weeks before an exam and they are revising/polishing.

Doing too much of this can get in the way of why you're really there..to play the piano! (Music, not scales!)
They are useful but shouldn't take over your practice.

Yes I'll agree with this too. My teacher says to me to do the scales that are in the key signature as this will help me play, well I am not sure if it does or not and if I remember I do try and do it first.

Now though, because of sitting an exam I have had to learn all the grade 4 scales and it has been easy to pick up.

ET

Wot no scales!

skylark
Founder of the 'I Love Scales Club'

I've been thinking about this and now I'm taking the clarinet more seriously (actually having regular lessons) I'm finding that scales/arpeggios/finger drills are more essential on clarinet than on piano where everything is laid out nicely in note order.