Please will one of you kind knowledgeable people tell me?

It's basically musical yelling.

It sounds like you're taking your chest register way over your passage into the head voice (although in reality that's not what happens at all if you're doing it right).

If you listen to musicals, you'll hear a lot of female singers do it - think of 'so if you care to find me, look to the western sky' in Wicked for a good example.

There are two different techniques for it :

1. You can disguise a strong mix with a good larynx tilt and a fair amount of twang.
2. You can deliberately place your larynx high, add a monumental amount of back support, retract the false vocal cords and basically yell it (tons of twang needed here).

Both techniques are valid and without danger if properly taught. The first sounds more musical the second more thrilling, so a good artist will choose between the two of them judiciously to make the music work.

Hope that helps!

My old singing teacher used to make me do this, he was obsessed with musical theatre singing :| Despite the fact that i'm a classical singer, this teacher came as a supply when my proper teacher was off sick, and when i sang in my head voice he tried to get me to belt it instead but i just couldn't do it =/ On my report he even wrote 'musical theatre singing' as the instrument - i do CLASSICAL singing!
I wish i could do it though it sounds good, but i've read that it's dangerous too

It's not at all dangerous if it's done correctly. The people who say otherwise have no idea of vocal anatomy and you shouldn't listen to them.

I've just realised that sounded quite harsh - it wasn't meant to! I get a little tired of hearing how such and such is dangerous, usually from people who don't know what they're talking about. (I'm not implying you, ffliwt - rather the people who wrote the articles).

Of course it's dangerous if you don't do it properly, but so is shaving.

The thing that scares most people is that in the second technique I described, you need an intentionally high larynx - many so called experts fear the high larynx as a thing of evil, yet are unable to tell you why. There is no research - let me repeat that - NO research that shows that a high larynx is dangerous to the vocal folds.

Where the potential danger comes is in constriction of the false cords which are just above the true vocal folds - when the larynx is high, sometimes these folds are constricted and therefore they pull the larynx up. There is, however, a huge difference between a larynx which is high by accident and one which has been put there on purpose.

If the larynx is high, the support system (particularly in the lower back) adequate and the false cords sufficiently deconstricted - then there is NO danger in this technique. Anatomically it's the EXACT technique that pavarotti used to sing his high C in caruso - he was belting (many teachers hate it when I say that, but anatomically it's a fact - his larynx was pulled high, his support system stronger than usual - the brightness of the sound is testimony to the fact.)

Furthermore, the first technique is totally without anatomical danger - however if used in an inexperienced singer, it can confuse them as to how to sing high notes properly.

To come back to the replacement teacher - he was clearly a fool. The voice should be placed in as neutral a way as possible, then - and only then - can we start to add effects to it (playing with brightness, adding ring and formant, even vocal distortion such as metal screams - yup these can be done safely too) - so he shouldn't have been asking you to add anything to your voice if he wasn't your usual teacher, but the chances are that he didn't know any other way to sing high notes (in the same way that many under-competent classical teachers teach lyric styling from day one instead of actually placing the neutral voice first).

Long rant sorry. Condensed version follows :

Belting not dangerous. Safe if done correctly - like drinking water.

Allan

Thanks for the info. Very helpful and makes me realise I need to know lots more about singing!

I admit to knowing nothing about belting, so on that basis, I don't teach it. Maybe in the future I'll hopefully come to know about it and be able to teach it, but it is a complex technique, and as you say, needs to be taught by someone who knows what they're talking about.

David

I didn't say i thought it was dangerous >_< Just that i'd read it, but only from random articles over the internet that i don't take much notice of Know you weren't aiming it at me though - and now i know about belting

How do I belt when I'm an alto?
I love Wicked and would love to do the songs from there, but I find it's too high to belt in my chest voice and my head voice is extremely quiet. How do I build it up?
Thanks PSL

You need a different vocal set up when belting than you do when singing in the low part of your range.

Basically, you need your chords set up thick, with lots of pharyngeal resonance, a high placed larynx and a great support system - it's easy once someone shows you.

If you're not averse to modern technology, I'll happily give you a lesson via internet video conference (I use Skype for this) and show you how to do it one on one.

Allan

That sounds really interested, Allan.

I'm currently looking for a teacher who specialises in this technique (see my other post) and am haven't found anyone yet. I'd be interested in a one off internet lesson, though I'm not very techno savvy so I don't know how it would work!!!

Beware rosfrog!! He is a dangerous person to know !

He's managed to persuade me to do this and I am the most dreadful technophobe...seems to be working all right so far!

Sure you're doing fine Miss Rilla !

Maria, I teach more than twenty lessons a week to students all over the world using Skype. You need a good connection and a webcam and mic - that's all.

I'm happy to do a one off lesson. PM me to fix a date if you like.

Allan

Thanks, that sounds fab! I'll go and see if i can muster up a webcam and let you know!

Just out of sheer interest: Can online lessons really replace face-to-face lessons? That's an honest question, because I thought about setting something like that up myself to keep some of my German students when I moved, but the more I thought about it, the less comfortable I felt with that idea.

I always have this idea that a mic (especially the ones you buy for online purposes) does not get the "real voice" across, and I would really want to hear every small nuance to see what actually goes right (or wrong). I also find physical contact quite important sometimes - not meaning that it doesn't work without, but it is so much easier to just help out with a simple little hand movement, or even to let the students feel themselves how it has to be done right - especially when I am teaching back-anchoring and suchlike. It sometimes just makes sense to let the student feel what's going on by allowing to place their hand on my back etc.
Of course you can explain all of this word-by-word, but then again, you get the students who won't get it right in a million years if you just use words (hard enough if you are actually in the same room ).
I am still wary myself to use this, although I think about it every now and again as I said. Maybe it is merely a character thing, and I just prefer real contact But apart from that, the above mentioned reasons make it hard for me to think that it can really replace "normal" voice lessons ...

As for the belting: Very well said, Allan. I also wish that some people would just stop talking about belting being harmful. Yes, it can be if done wrongly and yes, it might not be appropriate for every voice (especially not for kids' voices). But apart from that, it is a valid, very exciting and completely safe singing technique that most people just don't know enough about. Fair enough, but then they shouldn't turn their noses up at it and tell everyone how dangerous it is ...

I find this so interesting and helpful as I've been doing a lot of reading about these techniques recently and some people seem to say it's dangerous but I feel so much better that it's been explained properly and I can see that it can be done in such a safe way.

Out of interest, what is 'twang'? I've heard this referred to before and I've never known what it was.

Hi Mezzo !

Sure online lessons are great. I have students all over the world, professionals and amateurs, who are perfectly happy with the technique. The sound isn't as good as being in the same room, but that doesn't stop me from hearing which part of the body is messing around if something isn't working - I ask the student questions, get them to feel certain parts of their throat, larynx, back, torso etc and do exercices to activate them, then once they're comfortable using each part independently, we build them up to create the required sound (sometimes I reverse engineer a sound for a student by listening to a particular vocal quality or singer they like, figuring out the ingredients and teaching it to them). Most of my classes are taught like this now - some people still come for face to face, but I have some people in my town who prefer the video option too.

I have an excellent quality computer, cam and mic, extremely high connexion speed and the student needs a good mic and high connexion speed. I use skype. Give it a go with some students, you'll be pleasantly surprised. I started out with students I knew already, then when I got more confident at defining vocal anatomy problems, I started taking newcomers too.

As for belting - I always say - "Belting's not dangerous - running with scissors is dangerous. Belting is hard." That usually shuts up the detractors!

@ maria : Drop me a line if you fancy a go. As for Twang - if you're talking about the vocal quality discussed by Jo Estill, it's a vibration in the ventricule just above the larynx (but below the vocal folds) which adds brightness and clarity to the voice - it's a high larynx kind of sound and is very useful in all kinds of singing - it's partly responsible for the singer's formant that we hear so often in classical music. We can add a specific dosage of it to the voice to make different effects (someone who uses a little only would be Daniel Powter and someone who uses loads would be Lauren Hill) - however it needs to be used correctly to avoid vocal wear - thryoid tilt is particularly necessary (I don't know if the Estill approach recognises that fact or not, but it's anatomically necessary to take the strain off). Belting makes huge use of twang - it is impossible to belt safely without twang - it's the way you can maintain volume whilst using less air.

You can get an idea of what twang sounds like if you imitate a witch laughing or make a duck sound. It's a metallic resonance in the voice.

Hope that helps !

Allan

Yeah that's really helpful, thanks!

Some points about belting

As a baritoneturned tenor I used to "belt" ie sing with a glossy metallic sound very loudly 90 or 100 piece orchestras no problem Otello - Canio - Enzo Grimaldo meat and drink.

Then I went to Alberto Remdios who in one lesson turnied it all around - I became a head voice singer - voice got even louder (bigger than his ) and I added four notes at age 54 to be able to hit a reliable top F
That was 9 years ago everything works fine

My conclusion
1 Belting is not dangerous if done properly - if it A suits your vocal type B you have good support and technique and C it is carefully monitored

2 Belting does however limit the range you can work in and I would say it limits the amount you can sing before quality deterioration sets in The idea that it can be used to fill a hall without using a mike is for most people not realistic

I work mostly with African - Caribbean female pupils who are all choir based - they all have tremendous "belt " possibilities but limited ranges to work. Opening up the top properly adds both volume - richness and additional notes to the voice

The limited range thing - is that only if you belt all the time? I can't imagine that. Obviously as a not-very-advanced student I have no idea about lots of things, but it seems to me that belting is supposed to be used on certain songs, and not on others. I mean, obviously belting doesn't cover the whole of your range... I can only belt up to a D on the stave before I switch to my head voice...

I'm quite confused!

*Edited because I put B where I meant D*

Belting does not limit the range if you do it properly. Current research shows that a high larynx position with cricoid tilt and sustained breath with exaggerated false-cord deconstriction makes belting totally safe.

I can belt to d above high c - so I'm a few notes short of where I can go with my thin fold registration, but in general you should be able to belt up to the top of your range, give or take a fifth.

Lucky, if you're only belting up to a B then you're not doing it properly - how have you been taught the technique? We're the inner larynx movements explained and demonstrated to you or were you just told to push your chest voice up (a VERY bad idea)...

I'd like to point out, also, Tony that singing with a brassy, metallic sound is not true belting, but constriction of the aryepiglottic sphincter. The purpose of Belting is not to carry over an orchestra - that's where formant comes in to play - belting is a particular high note sound that is quite different from formant - for a start, decent format requires a relatively low larynx and a reduced amount of air pressure in the high notes - everything is reversed in real belting, it needs to be high pressure, high larynx etc.

So just to clarify for everyone, the technique called belting in the current vocal world is not a volume based technique (although it is loud) it's a certain timbre that is sought - singing with formant, or just pushing very loudly in head or chest voice are not belting, nor will they give the right timbre.

However I agree heartily with Tony that opening up the higher voice is a great aid to belt, however when using belt classical techniques need to be avoided at all cost - the classical preference for deeper harmonics, requiring a lower than normal larynx position would be catastrophically dangerous in the production of a modern belt sound.

Maybe I'm not doing it properly, I can belt up to a D (I wrote it wrong last night) but that's not much better than I originally put right? My singing teacher didn't say to push my chest voice up, she sort of explained it, but I'm not sure I understood entirely... She said to sort of relax my throat, and try to bring the sound forward...? Is that right? I almost never use it in my lessons anyway, maybe that's why it was only touched on.

... as for Belting through your entire range:

That's only possible if you are a man (that's why some people even say that strictly speaking, Belting is a completely female technique, men are natural born Belters anyway and therefore need much less work to learn it ).
Women have a completely different voice, or better: The basic vocal set-up is of course the same in all humans, but women use a different part of their voice - naturally 1/3 modal and 2/3 falsetto, while it is the other way round with men. I am talking of real vocal functions here (fry, modal, falsetto and whistle), not the dreaded "chest", "head" "middle" "mix" or whatever, because they are used differently by everyone anyway (10 people, 20 opinions ). But the 4 functions I just mentioned are physiological ...

So I would not advise any woman to belt over an F, maybe (!) a G if a very accomplished singer. Some women cannot even belt safely above a C or D, and I wouldn't let them do so if they have these limitations. Not every voice is suited to it, but if it is or not can be found out very quickly and without hassle. But that's just my 2pence ...

A good rule of thumb for BOTH male and female voices is the area roundabout D above middle C - most (although not all) people can learn to use Belt up till there. Above that, the air gets a bit thinner ...

+1 Totally agree with the last post.

The problem with belting is not so much the technique but the people who teach it. I am not meaning Rosgrog because he obviously knows that which he speaks I have dealt with a lot of teenage wannabes who are taught this technique by so called "singing teachers " at theatre schools These are usually resting actors who know not what they teach and assume teenagers
The other problem for me is the level of support needed - most pupils simply do not not have this and the breath control to carry out the technique properly

Result one messed up voice and disenchanted 15 year old

I would point out that given the death wish that some posters towards their voice who post on this forum. I have remarked before on the number of experimenters and "lost voices " I think anyone should be told in ringing or belting tones

DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME WITHOUT PROPER SUPERVISION

I know what you mean, Tonyteech - I've picked up some belting students from so called teachers over the last few months - basically unsupported shouting... dreadful.

Mezzo, current research by the British Voice Institute and Caroline Sadolin (I think that's her name) shows that the belt range can safely be taken much higher in women if a fair amount of aryepiglottic constriction is used.

Still, I think up to an F is fair (which is why I said give or take a fifth) for most voices and the general belt repertoire doesn't require any higher than a G usually. I would disagree that some voices can't belt higher than a C - if this is the case, there's clearly a physical problem that needs to be adressed.

There's also a fair amount of work going on into thick-thin folds and thick-thin folds, which further expands on the ideas contained in the four vocal qualities you mentioned (although I have a problem with there being no provision for thin fold work in that model - new research shows that thin fold and falsetto are quite different, with the falsette configuration requiring a raising of the vocal folds by an arytenoid tilt).

Totally agree that you cannot learn to belt by yourself, you need a specialist to teach you (it's not just high loud singing, it's quite different from the usual thin fold high register).

Allan

I rather won't say what I think about C. Sadolin and her Complete Vocal Method before I put my foot into something.
I took one of her workshops and have a quite strong opinion about her since then, but I'll better keep it to myself and let her curb and distort happily ever after

I sadly experience exactly the same problem like Tony: Vulnerable young voices getting taught "Belting" in so-called Stageschools by actors/allrounders who might have good performance, but very limited singing and even less teaching skills. Above all, they know nothing about Belting - they just shout and pass that on. And it sadly seems to be the rule and not the exemption that Belting is taught by those kind of people

My tip: Listen to the teacher's (speaking) voice AFTER they have done a show, concert or something (there will surely be a chance sooner or later) - or even their voice in general. You can usually tell quite quickly if there is any vocal abuse going on ...

Ah yes, the compete vocal technique thing is rather awful, it has to be said, but putting aside prejudice about her dodgy products, she's participating in extremely interesting research into extreme voice. A lot of research is currently happening and ideas are changing about what is acceptable - I'm currently working on extreme voice projects myself to do with belting and heavy metal screaming - all of which can be done with absolutely no danger to the voice - heavy metal actually uses a great deal of the same techniques as high intensity classical singing.

I agree about the shouty belting. It's awful. But you really can take the belt voice much higher than you'd think - it requires certain adjustments which we didn't really know of until recently, but it's possible.

I also agree that the voice should sound perfectly normal after belting - mine does, and so do those of my male and female students - the main thing they generally say is how easy belting feels when they put all the ingredients together - that's a good sign, I think. All of my female students will belt at least to an F or G with no difficulty (which is not the same, obviously as no effort )

It's hugely important to be wary of dodgy teaching and as teachers I do feel very strongly that we have a responsability to update our knowledge continuously and evaluate new anatomical knowledge to provide the best and safest approach we can. It can be very easy to frighten potential students from ever trying anything new, but our job is not to judge their sound aspirations, but to help them make the sound they wish in a safe and durable way.

Belting, even in extreme registers, is totally safe if studied with someone who truly understands the finer workings of the vocal apparatus.

Is it anything like that thing Celine Dion does when she moves into another gear? It seems like no strain or effort to her? And it sounds pretty good too.

Celine Dion sings with a lot of twang if I have her sound right in my ear (not too keen on her, but it's more the repertoire, not the voice ).

Allan, completely agree. Research moves on, and it's important to take all of that into consideration. Still, I think that many teachers don't focus enough on the differences in male and female voices if it comes to belting. Natural registration is completely different in a male voice, as men sing shortener-dominant through their entire range, so they are naturally quite close to the actual vocal set-up required for belting. All they basically have to do when they learn to belt is maybe to slightly tilt the CT, narrow the pharynx a bit more and increase the twang.
It is sadly not that easy in women, but I'll maybe write more about that another time, I need my bed

I agree about the shorter-dominant singing in Men, Mezzo - that's the whole point of the new research into the aryepiglottic configuration, combining it with a larger than usual cricoid tilt creates a very similar set up to the short-dominant we find in men - enabling the women to take their belting higher and enabling those with difficulty to reach at least the F/G required for standard rep.

Mad Tom - Yes. When Celine does the gear change thing, she's moving into high larynx belting. Mezzo's right, of course, she sings with a great deal of twang (sound modification brought about by positioning the epiglottis in a certain way and vibrating the ventricle above the vocal folds), which is also necessary for good belt. You can tell, though, when she's moving into belt proper, her physical stance changes to accomodate it. Like her voice or not (I find it a little too aggressive) - she has absolutely perfect belt technique - if a little twang heavy...

I totally agree about the "shouty" thing. I have no idea about all the technical stuff you're talking about but I hear a lot of students (I teach drama and not singing!!) doing that and it makes me worry for their vocal health. I think there are very few teachers who teach the technique (as I have found when looking) which makes people feel that they sould just have a bash at it themselves, which is probably what leads to a lot of problems. Why is there such a shortage of teachers teaching this method properly?

I think it's because the majority of 'singing teachers' are really classical singers who are trying to pass on knowledge that they have and they generally use imagery or repeat the things that were told to them - very few of them actually take the time to properly understand the voice. I think they should correctly refer to themselves as 'classical vocal style coaches' or 'teachers of classical style singing'. These people are unable to teach extreme techniques because they don't understand how they work and often will say 'just learn to sing in a nice classical style and the rest will follow' - they couldn't be more wrong, of course, as the differing styles of voice required are as different as chalk and cheese and learning the one will not help you with the other.

A good singing teacher needs to understand how the voice works in intricate detail. I believe we need to know what makes up the voice, which parts of it can move or be changed and how these movements and changes affect the sound that is coming out. I also believe that we should be able to listen to any singer singing in any style and immediately figure out what configuration is being used in the vocal apparatus to make that sound, which enables us to give a sound to our students that they wish to produce, and to enable them to do so in a healthy and durable manner. I do not believe that it is a singer teacher's place to judge the sounds a student wishes to make - as far as I'm concerned all styles and sounds are acceptable as long as they can be produced healthily (I have a large number of Heavy Metal singers in my studio, for example, who tell me I am the only teacher to have taken them seriously).

The problem is, then, that many teachers hide their lack of knowledge behind a veil of contempt for any technique they do not understand 'It's bad for you' - 'classical singing is better' - 'you don't want to do that, try this instead'... I think they should just say 'I don't know how to do it' and leave it at that, but often professional pride forces them to try to come over as 'choosing' not to have any truck with it.

Having met a large amount of singing teachers, I am perfectly convinced that as a species we tend to engage in less professional development that other teachers of music - prefering to rest on our laurels (I'm not speaking of the many excellent teachers on this board who regularly attend seminars, read research and even carry it out) - this means that a large number of us continue to base our teaching on myth rather than fact, claiming anything we don't understand is simply dangerous or not musical. It's also tedious to hear people continually diagnose every vocal problem as 'a breathing issue' or saying things like 'learn to control and feel your diaphragm position' when we have medically proven that the diaphragm cannot be controlled, nor can we feel it - being as it has hardly any nerve endings.

I prefer to work on fact - I teach how the voice works - how to use it to make the sounds you want. I then help people fine tune these sounds to suit them - it's not unusual to hear my students change between classical, musical theatre, metal, rock and celtic styles - all with a convincing sound and no vocal trauma. I chose to specialise in high intensity techniques and singing in an attempt to debunk all the nonsense that we constantly hear about these things being dangerous (usually from people who wouldn't be able to label a drawing of the larynx if you asked them to - do you know any violin teachers who don't know what the violin parts are called or what role they play in producing sound? I don't - but I know many so-called singing teachers who know very little about the physiological production of voice and continue to believe that breathing is everything, whilst remaining unable to tell the difference between 'The Voice' - i.e. how to 'sing' and 'Classical Voice' i.e. how to sound classical when you're doing it.) I just don't think there's any excuse for refusing to educate yourself - we owe it to our students to be the best, most knowledgeable teachers we can - even if (especially if!) we have a natural talent for teaching, think how much more efficiently we could do it if we improved our knowledge.

I have to say in France, the old-school, 'refuse to be wrong because I went to the Paris Conservatoire and sing opera professionally' crowd do tend to dominate (and are mostly SHOCKING teachers - I can affirm this as I've picked up a few of their students and recently had one woman cry because no one had ever told her how to adduct her vocal cords, preferring to make her focus on her breathing instead - "more support dear", was the cry - Excuse me? Her vocal cords are not closing correctly and you think that they will close and be more supple if she slams MORE air into them?.... with one simple exercise the hiss disappeared and she burst into tears because she'd been trying to achieve this for ten years - I'm not using that to say how great a teacher I am, I'm new to the profession. I'm using it to say ALL teachers should be able to diagnose and fix these problems). Needless to say, these people don't consider belting of any value whatsoever, preferring to tell students to sing EVERYTHING in head voice because 'it's better for you'. Yup. She'll definately get a broadway job singing like that.

This is something I'm hugely passionate about, in case you didn't guess!