I would like to ask a question to which I think I already know the answer but am hoping someone can just confirm for me.
When writing a piece of music in a minor key, I know the key signature is that of the descending melodic scale - the same as it's relative major. But if we take Dminor for example the key signature shows a Bb so non of the Bs need an accidental. Is the sharpened 7th from the scale (C#) optional and dependant on melody or do all Cs have to become #s using accidentals?
I think they don't otherwise the same rule would be applied to Bs and you ban't play a B and Bb at the same time so to speak! Sounds really silly now I heve written it but I have been doing exercises where you have to decide the key and re write the passage putting in the key sig. and using minimal accidentals (in this case you wouldn't mark the Bs as flat because the key sig. alredy tells you they are flat.)

The reason melodic minor scales are different going up and down is that melodies in minor keys often (but not invariably) follow this pattern - ie the 7th note is sharpened in a rising passage but not in a falling passage.

I'm not quite sure what sort of exercise you mean - are you converting a piece from a major to a minor key?

Q: Is the sharpened 7th from the scale (C#) optional and dependant on melody or do all Cs have to become #s using accidentals?

I would say it is dependent on the melody. Where a C# is required, it will be indicated with a #. Where it is not required, there will be no #. Whether the piece is in a major or minor key, you can determine better if you hear it. You can sing it in your head.


jay77 is working on a set of questions that requires him to figure out the key signature of a passage that has no key signature, and ALL the sharps and flats written as accidentals on the staff. Then he is supposed to rewrite the passage with a key signature, and all the unnecessary accidentals removed, with necessary ones added (a couple of naturals in most cases).

I think there is no hard and fast rule on whether the 7th must be raised in a piece, regardless of direction. Else we wouldn't have so many composers with unique styles.

I wonder if we should all look for some pieces, block the title out, and quiz one another on the correct key. Would be interesting. I will definitely have to sing it to myself, or even cheat a little by playing it on the piano

I think that would be fun! Yes I kept the C# accidentals when re writing as otherwise I thought I would have been changing the melody, but my conclusion was that in general the accidentals the scale draws on are optional and the only compulsory notes are those of the key signature.

As you've said, you would keep the C# because otherwise you would be changing the melody. And you're also right that you wouldn't mark the Bs (unless there is a B natural in the bar - if the natural only applied to one note, then you would need to mark a subsequent Bb in the same bar with an accidental if it was at the same pitch). Sorry if this sounds a bit , it's difficult to cover what might be relevant without seeing the passage!

I *think* what they're looking for in the question is that you understand the rules about when to use accidentals and when they're not necessary - in other words the key to the question is in the phrase "minimum accidentals", which I think is to do with how you treat the C#s...

- if there is more than one C# in the bar *at the same pitch*, you wouldn't mark every one as an accidental, only the first one of the bar

- if the C#s in the same bar are at different pitches, you would need an accidental at the start of each pitch

- if the C# is tied across a bar, you wouldn't mark the accidental on the tied note (ie the first note of the adjoining bar), but you do need to mark any further C#s in the bar

Seeing as they've asked for "minimum accidentals", the answer wouldn't be correct if you put an accidental against every C# in the bar (and that wouldn't be normal practice anyway).

You need to make sure that if you have a C# accidental at the start of the bar, that the melody doesn't switch to C natural part way through the bar. They sometimes trip you up that way


So to answer your question, in the context of the exam exercise you've mentioned, I think the answer is that all the C#s in the original version would remain C#s when you rewrite it, but they wouldn't all necessarily have accidentals against them.


If you give us the exercise you're looking at, somebody may be able to check

I didn't know this. Just goes to show how much attention I pay when I'm playing.

[quote name='skylark' date='Aug 21 2008, 08:16 AM' post='735305'][/quote]If you give us the exercise you're looking at, somebody may be able to check [/quote]

It is MTIP G2 Ex.18 (e) which was my example but I wasn't stuck on the question it just raised a general quierie in my head, being; If any piece is written in Dminor, is it compulsory for all Cs to be C# because of the ascending melodic scale? I think the answer is no as it would depend upon the intended melody? The same with using a Bb or a B natural which also both occur. I just wanted clarification - not with specific reference to said passage as obviously that is a written exam question so the C remains C# (with an accidental!)