A new question for you to help me with! If you would be so kind ...
D minor melodic; Sharpen 6th and 7th intervals ascending.
They have raised the the 6th to a B - obviously from a Bb - but why was it a Bb in the first place?
It says the first 5 degrees are formed from the intervals TSTT but there isn't a consistant interval between 5 and 6?
I know it is the relative minor for F major which has one flat (Bb). But, without first knowing that, how would someone know/be able to tell to write just the scales of D minor? (I would have made it a B# ascending and B natural descending)
Again, I do hope this reads easily. Have a tendancy to go the long way 'round

What I learnt from ABRSM's "First Steps in Music Theory", is that for a melodic minor,

ASCENDING:
Semitones occur for 2-3 and 7-8

DESCENDING:
Semitones occur for 6-5 and 3-2


So it is C# ascending, and Bb descending.

You are right. There is no consistent interval between 5 and 6 for melodic minor.

But you are supposed to sharpen the 6th and 7th ascending, and flatten them again descending, in a melodic minor right? So it would be; D, E, F, G, A, B#, C#, D - D, C, B, A, G, F, E, D. Only I know it is a Bb because it's relative major is F major.
So, without knowing about relative majors, how does one arrive at the 6th being a B ascending (and not a B#) if there isn't an interval rule??
Obviously the rule is to take the key sig. from the descending melodic scale too, which would also be incorrect! I know the answers, I just want to know how we arrive at them for that scale. If you look at E minor and A minor it works like a dream

There are probably technical reasons to explain what you're asking, but I just relate everything to the Circle of Fifths. Forgive me if this is a silly question, but I'm not sure whether you know about the Circle of Fifths or not???

No not silly! But yes I do.
Why obviously from a Bb? That's my question. To apply the rules of a melodic minor, the 6th would be a B, raised to a B#. I know it should be a Bb raised to a B (circle of 5ths and relative major imply this) but from the fact there isn't a set interval between a 6th and 7th degree, how would I know this from the applied rules of "Sharpen the 6th and 7th ascending"?

The pattern for an ASCENDING melodic minor scale is T S T T T T S


The pattern for an DESCENDING melodic minor scale (from the top note) is T T S T T S T

I understand how we arrive at the conclusions of all the #s and bs in a major key, as there is an interval rule (TTSTTTS) for each degree; but not in a minor scale( just first 5)??



AH!! Thank you! The AB book (!) says there is only an interval pattern for the first 5 degrees (TSTT).
There's my answer!! You save my sanity again Skylark - Thank-you!

P.s Do you see my point though going on the information I had?

Yes I do! There doesn't seem to be any one book which covers everything. I got that pattern from a book called How to Read Music in 10 Lessons () by Terry Burrows. It's not one of the books which is recommended for theory exam students, but I've found that it sometimes covers things which the other books don't.

The B is sharpened from the Bb in the natural minor, which for D minor would be D E F G A Bb C D (basically, the notes of F major, but starting on D instead of F). So when you play a melodic minor scale descending you are, in fact, playing the natural minor for the key. Hope that helps!

So, I'm not going mad!?
I would could probably make my life a lot easier if I just accepted instead of wanting to know "Why?" all the time. I understand some things 'just are', but where there appears to be a logic I need to understand it
Maybe I shall write my own theory book entitled 'The logic behind the answers'!! Copyright

The book I mentioned gave the pattern in descending order, but if the AB book gives it in ascending order, it might be better to learn it that way - T S T T S T T

Not really! (no offence meant)
But I have my answer now any way. It is amazing how we can all use different methods to msake sense of things in our own heads, that others find don't un twist things for them, if you get me?! One terrific thing about this forum; there will always be one explaination which helps!

Well It gives ascending but only for the first 5 degree's intervals TSTT. It says 6th,7th and 8va don't have a set pattern. Just to always raise 6th and 7th. But going on that alone, you don't always reach the correct answer.

It seems really strange for one book to say there's a pattern, and another book to say there isn't. I have to go now so I can't look in my other books to see what they say, but I'll have a look later unless anyone else contributes with an explanation in the meantime.

jay77, not sure if you realized, skylark's explanation and mine are actually the same.






But I think I understand why skylark's makes immediate sense to you. You probably memorize sequences i.e. TTST etc. very well. I am poor at that, so I only memorize exceptions i.e. semitones . Sometimes I even cheat by remembering just one scale pattern on the piano keyboard, and figure out where the semitones are by writing down the notes I would play on paper.

Really interesting, how we all pick up the same information in different ways!

My teacher has yet another way of remembering how to play/write a melodic minor scale.

ASCENDING:
Use the major scale as a basis, just "flatten" the 3rd.

DESCENDING:
Play the notes in the major scale of the "flattened" 3rd.

In this way, you only need to remember major scales

Try it for D melodic minor:
1) ASCENDING: Play D major, but instead of F#, just play F. C# remains, since it is part of D major.
2) DESCENDING: Play F major, which means only a Bb.

Try it again for A melodic minor:
1) ASCENDING: Play A major, but drop the C# to play only C. F# and G# remains.
2) DESCENDING: Play C major.

Yet again for C melodic minor:
1) ASCENDING: Play C major, but instead of E, play Eb.
2) DESCENDING: Play Eb major, which means Bb, Eb and Ab.

The explanation is in the next section (4/3), where they tell you which minors have the same key signatures as which majors. I agree that section 4/2, read on its own, is puzzling. They ought to say something like "We'll tell you in a moment why the B in a descending melodic D minor is a Bb, but for the moment just trust us on this, OK?"

An alternative method, probably easier in the long run, is just to learn how the various minor scales sound, exactly as you learn (or once learned) how the major scale sounds. That way, the question of why it's a Bb (or whatever) doesn't arise - it just sounds right that way.

Yes, I don't think that the books always explain things in a clear way.

Being a bit of an anorak, I too need to know the reasons why x is x, and so on. And I started to write my own 'Theory From First principles' book ... when I was 15 and bored after my GCSEs.. Didn't get much further than compound time...

Anyway, getting back to the issue of why D Melodic Minor has Bb ascending and not B natural, I just learned the key signatures for each key, and only later realised that the 'tones/semitones' pattern & 'circle of fifths' pattern applies in all cases. The key signature of D Minor has Bb, so when this (the 6th degree), is raised in the ascending form, it becomes B natural. Similarly, the 7th degree, C when raised, becomes C#. So for me, it all goes back to their respective key signatures.

Denmark

I suspect the pattern of the melodic minor results from the combination of two principles from Renaissance counterpoint, carried over from modes into the harmonic era, when keys became organised and codified. The first principle was that composers avoided augmented intervals, such as occur in the harmonic minor, because singers find them awkward to pitch. The second is the "musica ficta" rule that in order to avoid the augmented fourth or the diminished fifth (occurring melodically or harmonically) it was usual to raise a note in an ascending melodic line or lower one in a descending line. AFAIK, this is derived from aural aesthetics, i.e. they liked the sound of it. This principle was carried over into scale construction. Hence the sixth degree is raised in the ascending scale, to avoid the augmented third with the seventh, and the seventh is lowered in the descending scale, so that the sixth may remain flattened.

The descending melodic minor mode was used in Renaissance times and was named "Aeolian mode" in 1547.

Yes I see if i had learnt it that way around I wouldn't have found a need to question anything as that 'makes sense'!



Well I already know which minors are relative to which majors, I was raising the question: If I didn't, how would I work the scale pattern out? It is easy for majors but the book was mis-leading by a long shot in it's pattern explaination of minor melodic intervals (imo)

But next time I shall read on first.. thanks!



Sorry I thought your post agreed with mine that there isn't a pattern of interval for 6th and 7th degree?
Skylark confirmed there was - that was the information I needed.
But yes you're right apart from that your explainations are the same. I knew those facts already though. But thank you for your reply any in-put is welcomed as I am a theory novice

Why don't I just do that??! Duh! I always have to get into the stuff which takes me off track. I have said it so many times; I can not work easily from the pink book on my own yet I insist on doing so when there are quicker and more logical ways of learning things!! I may as well post " Why did someone decide to call it 'music'?"!!
Thanks Denmark