This is something I really struggle with. I can tell I am out of tune (on viola and 'cello) but then adjusting the correct amount seems to be impossible. It is really stopping my progress. Things like the chair I am sitting on (in orchestra/cello group etc.) make great difference, with my performance being best in a school chair, getting worse as the chair gets higher or lower.

What exercises would help me get better at this? Would scales with a tuner/someone playing them on the piano next to me help?

I have not got a teacher any more (as I am hopefully off to uni in September) so just have to rely on my own musicality to improve.

I play for about 3 hours a week with other musicians, and 3 hours solo practice so have time to get this cracked soon, I hope.

I usually practice violin with an electronic tuner, I think it is a great help. When I play a long note, the light goes blue if it is in tune but if its out of tune a red light indicates whether it is sharp or flat. So basically I get this visual feedback constantly. However, I think I am gradually losing my dependence on it, and I find it much easier to tell
if a note is out of tune than I did when I started.
I have also discovered that the tuner is of limited use, For some notes, it would lead me astray if I paid too much attention to it. Playing B-flat, for example, shows up as an A-sharp on the tuner, but if I try and make the note correspond to the tuner it sound just awfully wrong and out of tune.
My violin teacher recommended the book "Casals and the art of interpretation" by David Blum. There is a very interesting chapter "Insights for String players" in which it is explained that certain notes should be played slightly flatter or sharper than they are written. It also suggests that the the cello being slightly out of tune with the piano is tolerable .. and implies this is the fault of the piano!

So, maybe you are playing in tune and it is everyone else that is off

I think this is true - all to do with the piano being in equal temperament...

I think most expert string players would consciously adopt different tuning in a duo sonata with piano from what they would do in a string quartet. Some 18th C. violin method books include drawings of the fingerboard with the positions of the fingers for the "enharmonic" sharps and flats carefully separated, but in those days keyboards would usually have been tuned in some sort of mean tone to improve the tuning in the more common keys, at the expense of that in the remote ones.

The problems of mixing strings with piano become more acute as the number of strings increases. Of the regular groups, the most difficult is the piano quintet, in which the string quartet may be used to playing together and easily adopt their private tuning rather than listening to the piano, with its different and less familiar timbre.

I really don't recommend this approach - I hope some of the violin teachers will back me up on this.

The problem is that the tuner is based on fixed values for the notes - a C sharp will always be the same as far as the tuner is concerned you see - whereas on the violin, the C sharp that you play will vary in height depending on the key you're playing in.

To test this - play a perfect fourth by playing a b on the a string against the open e - once you've got it in tune, don't move your finger and try to play the sixth by playing the open d string and the same b - it will be horribly out of tune.

Another experiement - play each of your open strings to the tuner - if your fiddle is really in tune then only the A string will be perfect according to the tuner - the d will be slightly flat, the g flatter again and the e slightly sharp.

Let's try another experiment - find a C sharp on the g string according to your tuner - now have the tuner sound an 'a' (if it can do that - if not, record an a on your fiddle - first finger g string then play it back over the c sharp) - you will hear that the C sharp sounds wrong if you try to play the scale.

The notes you play on the violin, then, are NOT fixed values like those on the tuner and if you rely on a tuner you could end up teaching yourself to play out of tune - especially where double stops are concerned.

I agree about not using a tuner (except for initial tuning up before prac etc), although I couldn't say why. It just doesn't feel right to me to do it that way. I compare my tune on certain notes with the open strings and then how right the other notes sound. I may have an advantage in being able to hear something being off-tune straight away, (perhaps years learning and working with language, esp a tonal one have helped), but I wouldn't dream of using my tuner to check notes.

That's interesting, I didn't know a tuner can be bad for you.

Somtimes I use my tuner to practice scales and high notes but I don't aim for the green light, if my note is relatively close to the green light such that it's not too flat or sharp - I presume that note is ok. I also listen out to the "ring" of certain notes i.e. to check F# on the D string, I would play F# and then G - if my G has a ringing echo sound then the F# should be okay. I also check octave notes to make sure they're in tune.

I'm not an advance player and not that musical, I don't know enough about intervals and chords so I can't use that method to tune. I guess you'll get better as you progress and learn more.

I always find scales with more than 2 flats or sharps a bit difficult but one of my friend plays the piano at around grade 4 level and she finds scales and intonation a bit easier because she's use to hearing tones and semitones. (She also does a lot more practice compared to me!)

How do examiners know whether you're in tune or not? For my last exam I had a comment about being "fairly good" which kinda means it's ok but not good enough. Do some people just have a good ear or its due to experience?

Mostly I expect they listen to intervals, the harmonic intervals (including unisons and octaves) that you make with the piano, and the melodic intervals in your playing.

There is clearly a congenital component, because an unfortunate minority cannot distinguish that two pitches are different, no matter how much they are taught, but for the rest of us the development of an accurate ear for pitch comes mostly from listening to music.

Yes. I didn't rely on a tuner but grew up 'checking' my intonation against a piano, esp. when practising scales... d'oh! Now I'm aware of this I am trying to 'undo' it - when I manage to practise, that is.

I have NEVER used an electronic tuner myself when playing the violin and additionally, I was fortunate that when I started learning to play the violin there were no such things as electronic tuners anyway! Accurate relative pitch was something that I didn't have a problem developing and to me, all pianos sound out of tune regardless - equal temperament thing I guess.

The only time I've ever used an electronic tuner is when checking the intonation of an oboe, or oboe reeds just to see what note the reed crows at. If it's crowing at Bb, then for me I know the reed will be ok.

I have however, carried an electronic tuner in my violin case just to prove to some of my pupils how bad their intonation is, especially those who swear blind that they are listening to ever note they play.

Using open strings (as a double-stop drone) when playing scales is a very good way to improve relative pitch. It encourages the ear to really listen to the interval being created - something which can present a problem when pupils first learn to double stop, trying to place their fingers where they think the notes will be rather than listening to and forming the interval by ear.

I know there will be those who disagree, but I find the most problematic pupils with tuning on the violin are those who've learnt to play the piano first. Every single one of them insists on looking at the keyboard for help when naming key signatures, tones or semi-tones and even playing a scale. GRRRRR! it really gets on my wick... The first thing I do in their lessons is shut the blasted lid over the keyboard!

Yes! Although I don't use a keyboard/tuner for tuning I do have this imaginary keyboard in my head for working out the other stuff...
N

So does that make me quite unusual then in that I don't have to use a keyboard image for any of this? There must be other non-pianists on here who have learnt key signatures, formation of scales etc. purely through music theory and committing the information to memory.

I think about key sigs in relation to the violin, I think, rather than the piano, although I started learning piano about 6 years before violin.

I think really it's a combination of things - I learnt theory separately but at the same time as piano, and tend to remember key signatures, scales etc independently, but intervals sort of appear on the mental keyboard.
N

Yes me too. I took "O level" music as an adult at night school and initially didn't play anything. So I just learned a few rules and after that it's basic arithmetic. It seems to me one of those things people make very heavy weather of. The piano keyboard never enters my mind.

I went on to learn viola - tuners in those days were tuning forks and I agree with the open string test. I also eventually discovered that once you have a stopped string at the correct pitch, you can keep that finger down and test another adjacent stopped string. I found this useful for building up (particularly) arpeggios.

Actually that depends on the interval you want to check and the key you're playing in - if you're in C and you make an e on the d string and check against the g below for a sixth, if that note is in tune, then it won't be if you check the fourth with the a string above - you'll have to move your finger again to make your e be in tune.

I could argue it's the e which is out of tune. Or point out I didn't have one on the viola

Actually it's come as a bit of a shock to find it's easier to play out of tune on an oboe than on a viola

Well, I learned a little piano about 25 years ago and I did get my understanding of how many and which sharps and flats were in each key signature from that (up to about 4 of each), but I don't need a keyboard for any of that now. I just learned that G was one sharp and that that sharp was F and so on. I suppose I might have had more of the 'which black keys would it be?' if I'd had more piano knowledge, but I guess that, like you Amanda, I've taken it as a general. That is, if I've understood the discussion right!!!

Me too, though I learned piano more recently than that (but before starting on the viola). I found theory fairly incomprehensible until I started using a keyboard. Thanks to learning the piano, I more or less know my way around the key signatures, but I don't think of how I'd play a scale on the piano when playing it on the viola. Sounds a bit weird, actually.

Ah but you do have an e on the d string and an a string to compare it with...

It simply proves that there is no such thing as a correct pitch on the viola or any instrument capable of perfect tuning - there's a correct pitch for a given context (the sixth in this case) which will be wrong for another context (the fourth in the same key).

Not really a piano player myself although I started on piano. I learned most of my music theory away from the piano so tend to think in terms of visualising manuscript and imagining heard intervals.

Doesn't stop my intonation on the violin being all over the place though (although it's getting a wee bit better when doing position shifts, which I think is due to relaxing more with the thing). My only defence is that I started in February so I'm still very much the beginner violin student.

Cheers,

Matt.

At the moment you still have a good excuse but not forever. Playing intervals correctly on the violin are not only relative to each other, but also related to the key.

Hi Amanda,

Have mercy! I'm still trying to find out why they supplied my violin without frets.

Thanks for the tip though. Will bear this in mind.

Cheers,

Matt.

They make it more difficult to play exactly in tune. However, lutes and viols have gut frets that you can put in the right place for each piece.

I once met a viol player who claimed to play in just intonation in 16th and 17th C. music, which often stays within one key. I asked her how she coped with the need for two sub-mediant pitches in a key (e.g. A in the key of C); you need one for the major third above the sub-dominant (F) and the other for the fifth above the supertonic (D). She said that she tuned the open string to one of the pitches and adjusted the frets so that the same nominal note on the string below gave the other one. My mind boggled somewhat.

Aye, hence the old joke about guitarists that spend half their life tuning up and the other half playing out of tune.





Aye, they're a strange lot the HIP (Historically Informed Performance) crowd. I played Lute a few times but got told off for going off on one and launching into a Van Halen piece. Some people have no sense of humour.

Cheers,

Matt.

More acceptable than playing Bach on a steel E string, I should have thought.