Hi,

So I've worked out that the (very slight) pain in my left hand is due me not maintaining the arch. I let my knuckles drop sometimes which means that my fingers are rising above the line made by the back of my hand. This tends to happen on stretches or when there is a black key in the way of my 3rd or 4th fingers causing them to rise. My right hand is fine - good position and never hurts.

Does anyone have any exercises to correct this? I've rested it until the pain has gone away and changed the way I type, which was really bad too.

When I start to play again do I :

- go back through old pieces slowly making sure of the arch?
- practise arpeggios and octaves?
- some Hanon? I've never done any before but have the book.

Any advice would be gratefully received - my teacher has gone on holiday for a month.

Thanks!
Dave.

ps. I'm grade 6 if that makes any difference ...

My teacher used to give me this exercise away from the piano. Hold an apple, an orange or a tennis ball in the palm of your hand and bend your fingers around it to create the correct shape you want. Gently loosen the wrist to and fro (small movements) keeping your wrist behind your hand - meaning keep your hand in line between your wrist bones. Do this very carefully until your wrist learns to relax while maintaining your arch. It might feel a bit strange at first - but there should be no pain. STOP if this occurs.

I think you then need to ask your teacher for exercises to strengthen your fingers and possibly how to balance the weight over your fingers without strain. I think you might have a lot of tension over the top of your left hand at the moment which transfers itself to your wrist. I have an adult pupil with the same problem at the moment.

HTH

Hanon is good - used the right way. Don't simply plough through lots of it. Pick one or two exercises. The first two would be fine. Play them at speeds from very slow and deliberate to moderate speed, fingers close to the keys, both hands separately and hands together, with most of your attention on the main point you are working on - keeping the correct hand position. As each finger plays, adjust the arm slightly so that it lines up with the next finger to play.

The knuckles dropping is inevitable when a small hand tries to stretch over a wide interval.

Can I ask a question about arching please...

I've seen some concert pianists with a very pronounced arch (claw-like) and others with a flatter hand position. I much prefer to watch the ones with the flatter hands - they just seem to glide over the keys whereas the pianists with the claw-like position appear to make it look much harder work and in my opinion it's much less pleasant to watch.

Can anyone tell me why the arched position is so important - I'm gathering that it's to do with keeping pain-free tendons, wrists etc - but does anyone know why some concert pianists have flatter hands and presumably don't suffer from tendonitis etc?

Too flat and it's difficult to move your fingers.
Too rigidly arched also tends to be a rather tense position.
The key is relaxation..... My favourite way of teaching a basic hand position is to let you arms relax at your sides then lift your hands onto the keyboard without changing the hand position. If you look at the natural resting hand position it's pretty well perfect for the piano.
Having said this it's only really a starting point and will change depending on what you are playing as regards to notes and articulation.

The arched position with curved fingers, when used correctly gives maximum control, and most efficient application of force. I read somewhere that for a given amount of effort flat fingers generate only 70% of the force of curved fingers. It is also - of course only if done properly - the position in which the fingers and hands have least tension in them. Curved fingers and raised knuckles was the standard basic technique from the late baroque and through the classical period, but it has never been a fixed thing to be maintained rigidly.

With the Romantic period came all kinds of new techniques - wide spread arpeggios, bigger chords, more use of playing widely spread independent parts in one hand, and so on. Some of these (e.g. Chopin Etude Op 10 No 1) are only possible with a flatter hand position and with more extended fingers.

Many concert pianists use the classic technique whenever possible, and only deviate from it when they have to. Some use the flatter position sometimes even when it is not essential so as to have more variety in touch and tone. A very few use primarily the flatter position and get away with it, because they are extremely relaxed in general, have huge musical ability and extraordinary co-ordination. (And of course some so-called pianists use any old junk and neither think about what they are doing, nor listen to the sound they are making)

<-- Playing with bunched fists!!!

This is NOT recommended - but it does create a passable impression of the music of Pierre Boulez.

Yes I see what you mean, that's quite a nice position and feels relaxed, thanks.



That's really interesting, that the hand position has changed with the music of the period, thanks for that bit of information.

I find it really difficult to maintain an arch, and also to stay relaxed, particularly when I'm concentrating so hard. I am getting some twinges in my arms and neck, I think I'll ask something on another thread...

It depends what you want to do, if you're playing the black keys etude or fast octave passages you'll never get up to speed with an arched hand. Watch Berezovsky play 'Mazeppa' on youtube it should give you an idea of flat hand technique.

That's really impressive. He's got very flat hands hasn't he, much pleasanter to watch in my opinion than a "claw-like" position.

Actually, if a pianist makes the hand look 'claw-like' then it is incorrectly placed. The arch should be in the palm of the hand and the fingers placed on the keys just under the nails on the 'cushion pad' of the fingers. As sbhoa says it should be as natural as possible. My exercise quoted above is only one way of helping the relaxed wrist but it does work. I also use arm-weight movements lifting on and off the piano to get the relaxed muscles. Flat fingers 'per se' are not good for beginners in five finger hand positions. The thumb has to have room to pass under for example, a chromatic scale needs the arched hand and managing trills on the piano etc etc. A lot will depend on the repertoire and Mad Tom is right that different techniques developed along with the technological development of instruments.

Tone production on the piano and managing the soft/loud is also very important as the player needs to feel the speed at which the key descends. I often say 'let the key lift back again' without any extra effort from the pupil. Flatter hands are needed for arpeggios of course. If stretching an octave with small hands the important thing is to allow relaxation back into the arched hand again after the 'tension' of stretching. Playing is fluid movement for the hands - passing through different shapes and positions.

Yes I can see this now you mention it, at least the bit about the thumb, I haven't got on to the other things yet. Thanks for that - I'm much happier if I can see a reason for doing something!

I don't find it natural at all unfortunately, but I guess everybody is the same when they first start learning. I start off in the right position and then before I know it, my hand has lost the arch, my thumb has come off the keyboard and my index finger is waving about in the air. And I'm not even conscious that I've done it, it's very frustrating (Writing this I've realised that I probably need to slow down and focus on position for a time )

It is difficult and especially for adults carrying all the tension of daily life on their shoulders when they arrive for a lesson. I should say in their shoulders - when I was learning as a child my little finger would keep pointing to the ceiling instead of to the piano key When I was old enough to think about 'why' I had a problem I consciously willed my shoulder and muscles in my upper back to relax and the muscles in my little finger followed. Try tensing it on purpose and you will feel the muscles all the way up your arm tensing with it. Focus on how you feel as a whole when you sit at the piano - not just your hands. To help index finger and thumb try holding a 'pencil' between them and imagining it still there when you rest your hand position on the keys. Have you tried any rotation exercises as well? (Turning the whole hand and lower arm over from the elbow - very relaxed).

There is an easy check on the "correct" position. Sit at a table and rest your forearm, from elbow to wrist, on the surface, with your hand palm down, fingers extended but relaxed, and fingers almost but not quite touching. Keeping the arm still, and the hand and wrist relaxed, draw back the four fingers so that they form a nice even curve from the main knuckle, where they join the palm, to the tip that is contact with the table. You should feel no tesnsion as you do this - if you do then you have probably adopted the wrong position. Allow the knuckles to rise naturally. The last joint of each finger should be almost, but not quite vertical, so that the soft, sensitive pad of the finger tip, just behind the nail is in contact with the table.

If you imagine this position transferred to the piano keyboard the primary movement of the fingers from this starting position is down, to depress the key, then back to the starting position, by relaxing and allowing the key to rise and lift the finger. There is very little need to actively raise the fingers. You may see exercises where the finger is raised high before striking the key with great force, but they are exercises - not the way to use the fingers in actual play.

You will notice that in the basic position the back of the hand slopes up a little from wrist to knuckle. You will also notice that the thumb has freedom in two directions. It can move freely up and down to play notes with control. It can also move under the hand without causing pain or stress at its base joint. If you now flatten the hand by pressing down the knuckles you will see that the thumb loses both of these capabilities. This is very important because the thumbs of a pianist make characteristic actions literally millions of times that the thumbs of a normal person (non-pianist) never experience. If they are even slightly wrong then injury can result - which may be long lasting, or even permanent.

Thanks to everyone for your advice - very useful as always

I've gone back to playing scales and pieces but concentrating on relaxing and maintaining a good posture and hand position. This isn't always easy due to my various injuries (broken bones in my left hand and elbow surgery ...)

Its quickly becoming natural although the hardest part is getting rid of the tention in the hand when stretching and playing chords (you're dead right BusyBee). I'm getting there, though...

When playing pieces I don't really worry too much about getting the notes right - just the hand position. Not sounding too great at the moment, but a lot less tense ;-)

I've also got work to buy me an ergonomic keyboard and mouse because I pretty much type all day. This is helping loads too and I can recommend doing this - much more comfortable.

I'll let you all know how it goes.

Dave.

ps. MadTom - thanks for the history - always interesting

Just wanted to say that this has made a huge difference. I actually used a real pencil and played for a while with it between my fingers. Very awkward but effective! It seemed to do the trick and I'm much better now at keeping my index finger low. Still need a bit more practice with the thumb but it's better than it was. Thanks ever so much for that tip



I like that concept and I've been trying to bear that in mind - it makes playing much more natural.



My piano keyboard is on an adjustable stand and I realised that I'd got it too high so the angle of my hand was the wrong way round - it was actually sloping down I've corrected it - thanks for that and for the other useful advice.

Haha, I went to a concert where some of his 'music' was being performed, I had to bite my fist to stop myself laughing and as far as I could tell it sounded much like a toddler randomly whacking the keyboard. Something about emperors and new clothes springs to mind.

You're welcome Skylark - I use the 'pencil' idea quite a lot with my pupils and it seems to work quite well.
There is a little book called Dr Downing's 'Piano Technique Doctor' by Nadia Lasserson which has lots of hints and tips for posture and correct movements at the piano

The pencil balancing excercises are good, I remember this was suggested to me when playing some of Dohnanyi's music. It's quite common in piano pedagogy.

As for arched or flat hand positions, I disagree that there is one single correct way of placing your fingers. Of course you have fundamentals of technique in Czerny or Hanon, i.e. a single fingering for scales or arpeggios, but you must remember that the masters of piano literature invented all these new motions thought to be incorrect at first; infact, their pieces are probably only playable by their own technique and they certainly don't sound bad (again Chopin's cartwheel or single-note with different fingers).

Moreover, arpeggios don't require flat-hands, this is a misconception: if you play a C major arpeggio at 4 octaves it's perfectly acceptable to use an arched hand, all you need to do is turn your thumb properly and have a reasonably mobile wrist. A flat-hand generally requires half the wrist mobility than an arched-hand position. Don't forget that white keys are larger and in simple terms they are easier to hit. It would make more sense to use a flat-hand on arpeggios in flat keys. Some good ideas, in any case.

I've just tried to order this from Dr Downing's web site - the order form didn't work but I've emailed them and hopefully I can order over the phone. Thanks for the tip

Practise balancing a coin on the back of your hand. This keeps your hand in position. If the coin falls, you have moved your hand too much, by flattening, raising, turning - as in rotary movement - your wrist. BUT, no cheating by applying sticky tape, super glue etc.

But if you do this remember that it has limited use.