So, here we are again, starting a new thread for violin and viola beginners! Thought I'd start again rather than dig out the old one, esp. as we have a lot of new beginners and, if Jo is really going for her grade 5 soon, then I no longer think she qualifies!!!! I think we can call up to Grade 3 the beginners' level.

Anyway, Claudia, how are you getting on with your first lot of prac? I did pizz to start with too, although it was with a different teacher in those days. I don't know the book you're doing and I confess to wishing we were doing the same books as then we could curse the same hard bits and I might get some more motivation as I'd feel I really ought to keep somewhat ahead of you, given that I've been learning for 18 months already. I have been very ill most of the time, so have some excuse, but I know E's keen to push me forward and I don't blame her one little bit. I must drive her mad at times! At least I go 98% on my Grade 2 theory, that's something I've achieved, but that's just SOOOOOOOO much easier than learning to play the viola.

The pencil bow-hold exercises are really good. Have you done the bit about shaking water off your hand and picking up an over-ripe berry as well?

BTW, what other musical background do you have, (if any?)

And how are all our other pre-Grade 3 violinists and violists getting along?

I'm getting on great thanks Will do some more practice later Shaking water off my hands and picking up an over ripe berry sounds very familiar to me
I'm quite keen to move forward though but I know it's not going to be as easy as it was to get started with flute.
Got a lesson on Wednesday but then not for two weeks as E is on holiday one week and I am the next...

As for my musical background... I played recorder at school I took up flute one and a half years ago, got my Grade 2 last year and might do grade 4 either in November or June. I've also done my grade 5 theory, did that in June.

Hi. I have returned to learning the violin after a 45 year break, so I had to start from, "you hold the bow like this, you put the violin under your chin like this", again. I wish every day that I had not given up when I was a child, but I did, so I am now two months into relearning. I had just scraped through my grade 2 with what was described in the examiner's comments as "a marginal pass", when I quit.

I have a teacher I like, and I enjoy playing again so that's a start. I don't really know how far I have progressed yet because I don't have much to compare it with. The fingering is coming back to me better than the bowing is. I did make the mistake of recording my playing a couple of days ago, and it does not sound so good to me recorded as it does when I am playing, so plainly I have been deluding myself. The most obvious problem is that it sounds as though I am rigid with fear when I am playing, there is nothing relaxed about the sound, so I shall have to work on that. My teacher keeps telling me to relax, now I see what she means. (But my teenage son does rather kindly say that it just a cheap dictaphone and my playing sounds better in person, or perhaps he is just trying for more pocket money.)

The rest of my musical background? I also quit playing the recorder when I was a child. I still have it and was surprised to find I can still get a tune out of it, but I never got beyond playing Christmas carols in the junior school performances.

As far as musical background goes, I too have recorder playing at school, (I may even come across my old recorder somewhere in mum's loft when we get to clear it out soon.....), but nothing really beyond that. I was 'given' a piano when I was 11 along with a very old fashioned tutor book, from which I learned a few fingerings, some simple tunes and basic theory (which I still remember!). I would have loved to have learned properly, also wanted to do flute when I was 8 or 9 as my friend was doing it and then fell for cello when I was about 14. We weren't allowed anything that would cost my father money (all money was his, end of story! ), so music lessons were out and you knew not even to waste your time asking.

So, here I am, 36 and married to a reasonable bloke who doesn't mind me spending a tenner a week on a viola lesson that nothing substantial is likely to ever come from. He even said, 'As long as you enjoy it'. I started on 1 Feb last year, at the threshold of middle age, to finally achieve a childhood dream of playing an instrument.

I ought really to be working on at least Grade 2 sort of syllabus by now, but health is a constant nuisance and I'm grateful if I can stay virus-free for long enough to practise 3 times in one week. I tell you, it's becoming a real pain in the butt! I'm on a really tricky bit at the mo and, as Claudia said, our teacher is about to go on her hols, so I really don't want to cancel my lesson this week, I want new material to work on whilst she's away. Don't want to be at all competetive, but I really must move forward somewhat and I'll be totally and utterly brassed off if Claudia even takes her Grade 1 at the same time as me, never mind earlier!!!!

After only having learned for 4 months, (and having lost about a good 10 weeks of that to more blasted illness), I joined in one of the forums' concerts. Fancy a slot in the 3rd January event with me, Claudia? We can play one or two of the really easy peasy duets from 'Viola Time Joggers' where the 2nd viola can even just pizz open strings. As you're local, it would be great! (Are you proud of me, Skyers? )

Would love to

Ace!

What drew you to viola, btw? Interesting combination, flute and viola.

I tried it out at the Yorkshire Late String Starters Beginnners Day, because I thought it sounded nicer than the violin, and because I thought my hands would be too small for the 'cello. Loved it

Tell me more about your pizz work so far. Have you done any notes on the strings yet, or is it just timings on open strings etc? My first lesson was both, but I had a few notes to practise on the D string my first lot of homework.

I wanted to come to the YLSSO event and play cello or bass, but I couldn't make that day - typical! Anyway, might be able to play on someone's cello at the forum concert. Oh, you could do a little flute piece too, if you wanted. Once we've both made the final decision to sign up and can see where we both are in terms of progress, we can pick a couple of pieces to play. Do you have VTJ at all?

I have the book, yes I also have viola time runners in case I progress mega-fast

I'm just pizz-ing on open strings at the moment, and that's my homework for Wednesday

Looking forward to hearing you pizz!


A cellist from the YLLSO came to the last summer concert so you never know

I'm not expecting the winter concert to be as large as the summer one so everybody should get the opportunity to play either longer pieces or several shorter pieces, or in more duets/small ensembles

I could play a (flute) solo

Bravo!!! Looking forward to it already

How is the 4th finger coming along, Elisabeth? I've spent weeks using it (my 4th finger, not yours) instead of the open string at every opportunity, and it no longer seems totally unnatural to use it at all.

I'm just popping in to moan about fourth finger too - I have to be creative in positions to play some passages because my fourth finger just seems to always fall consistently flat - I'm sure my viola is too big for me but I can't bear to bring myself to change...

I used to have that problem. Since I changed to a smaller viola, my 4th is usually sharp ...

I know I should probably change (I'm on a 17 inch) but I LOVE my viola soooo much I would find it very difficult to change. So for now that means occasionally having to play things in second or third position that weren't originally written there. Ah well...

Did you find you lost much tone when you changed?

Yes, but that may have been because the smaller one was brand new. It sounds better now than it did at first. I still don't think it sounds quite as good as the old one did.

But I read in a book about the acoustics of stringed instruments that the thing about bigger violas sounding better is actually a myth. I didn't understand the reasoning, but the conclusion made me feel marginally less bad about parting with my lovely 17 inch viola.

I my viola and I can play in three key signatures now!

So can I! Wahoo! However, it's just really one octave of each, although I can play the upper octave of C major in a scale, we haven't got to low 2nd finger yet really.



I thought you might just happen across this part of the thread..... Aren't you proud of me, rustling up support like this??


Mmm, I think I might have found it odd had you wanted to use my 4th finger, although given that you're making so much progress with it, I ought to let you!!! I must try what you've been doing. I still find it rather a nightmare, but I can do it when forced. The 4th finger simply doesn't follow along with the rest. It's all very well my teacher saying keeping all 4 fingers poised above the strings, but the 4th finger simply won't! It's a little better than when I first started using it, but only a very little.

Ooof, is learning viola hard or WHAT? Not giving up though.....

Indeed Just make sure you turn up yourself!

I thought i'd pop into this thread too. i've just managed to learn my first scale (D Major) and a few tunes on my violin. It's quite a task to advance in violin since it requires a lot of practice and repeating but i'm finding it very gratifying.

Bloomin' cheek!

I'll be there! I even thought of suggesting doing a flute and viola duet with Claudia as she could play the violin line from some stuff we've got/can gt hold of on her flute!! Well, better get practising again....



Yes, it's jolly hard work. In a way, I envy the 'simplicity' of violin as your notes are closer together (don't have to stretch as far to get them on the fingerboard) and, boy are violins lightweight compared to violas! You wouldn't believe the difference those extra couple of inches in size make! I've tried several violins and I just can't believe how easy they are to hold.

I used to have the same problem (I also play a 17" viola), but making an effort to push the elbow a bit further out under the instrument when using the fourth finger solved all such problems (at least up to the third position). It feels a little unnatural and uncomfortable in the beginning, but you quickly get used to it.

How did your 2nd lesson go, Claudia? Tried bowing yet?

I played a short piece the other day and E's response made me crack up, 'Well, that was fascinating!" There were4 semi-quavers in many bars of 4/4, but I kept playing 5!!! I just loved her response!

It went fine thanks Played some of the pizzicato duets in my book to start with. Then went on to some bow holding exercises... like stirring, planting a tree and then windscreen wipers tried that with a pencilfirst ans then with a bow, to practise bow control
I then went on to seesaw over the strings with the bow... so all those exercises with playing some open strings are my homework

Those see-saw exercises are invaluable! I almost always do them as a start to my prac sessions. They really help in getting the right arm height for each string.

Yep, I can see how they're going to be very useful

Glad you're enjoying it. It can seem painfuly slow at first, but you learn very thoroughly with E.

What kind of stuff are you playing at the moment, Elisabeth?

Nothing at the moment as I'm ill yet again with a relentless 'flu-ish thing! Normally though I'm on 'Essential String Method' book 2, just starting stage 3. That's my main course, but I do 'Viola Time Joggers' as my pieces book and have done up to #27 in there. I've also done the prep test, so I can play the unaccompanied set piece from that (which is quite hard in many ways), and can also play the first piece from 'First Repertoire for Viola' book 1 - the ubiquitous Beethovens' 9th exerpt! Oh, with my old teacher I started using 'Essential Elements for Strings' book 1 and get about half way through that, plus can play one octave scales in D and G, and 2 octaves of C with one octave arpeggios of all 3 and some other practise exercises, esp those for using 1st and 4th finger!!

I expect you'll progress a fair bit faster than me as I've lost about 2/3 of my learning time thus far and I can't believe how little I've done over the last 18 months! Quite depressing really, but I'm hanging in there, hoping for better things (and better immunity!! ) and no doubt Someone Else would agree with me!!!!

What other books etc have you got? I remember 'Tune a Day', (is that the recent edition?) and you've got 'Joggers' and 'Runners'. Anything else I might know?

OK, best get back to bed I suppose. How boring!

I think part of the problem is that one starts learning to play with the first three fingers, then one adds the 4th as an afterthought, and wonders why it seems hard. Have you tried positioning the hand so that the 3rd and 4th are comfortable, and stretching back with the 1st and 2nd?

I'm new here (although have been lurking for quite a few months now, trying to decided whether to join or not) and took up the violin as an adult learner in January. It's been a real jump into the deep end as I was previously a clarinettist while I was at school. Didn't take any exams then, and have no real plans to do any right now either.

I've been learning as I said since January and have been working through the Abracadabra Violin book 1, and been working at some of the pieces from the Grade 2 selections book thingy. I'm having great fun attempting some of the double stops at the moment and it's not sounding completely hideous (apparently).

I do like your suggestion, Primrose, about positioning the 4th and 3rd fingers and reaching back for 1 and 2. I've been having problems with the 4th finger and it's not helped by the fact I broke it several years ago and it's now rather nicely bent permanently. I do tend to hit notes sharp more than anything these days though which is quite nice!


So um yes. I hope no one minds my just jumping in here. *waves*

Hello invinciblemoon (what a nice username), and welcome. Of course we don't mind you jumping in - that's what we're here for. You're doing well if you're on to Grade 2 material already.

I remeber abracadabra book 1 and 2 from when i was about 10.

Some great starter tunes in there.

Hope you find violin fun! I am always around if you need advice.

Hey everyone!

Well, I finally managed to do a bit of prac a couple of hours ago. Made me horribly tired, but I was glad to do it, even though it was just open strings exercises and a few scales and tuning exercises.

Funny that you mentioned playing with Grade 2 pieces, invinciblemoon, as I occasionally pick at a Grade 8 piece!! It's Glazunov's Elegy for viola and it's beautiful, (do you know it Primrose and Babybird2?), and is mostly in Eb major, so I figure I ought to be able to make a stab at many passages of it when I'm working on my Grade 2 level material/keys. It's fun just to hear that melody coming my own viola, even though it's slow, stilted and often out of tune as I haven't done those fingerings properly yet.

Do you know, I've been going just over 18 months now and I still don't know how I'm ever going to be able to play well! It's just so difficult! Being well enough to practice more would help a great deal and I'm aiming to get in at least 10 minutes every day whilst I'm trying to strengthen up a bit, preferably more than once a day and that should help. If I can manage to avoid any more viruses for a few weeks, that would be great, but I daren't even hope!! Anyway, I thought something that would help me is to preview the next sections that I'm about to do before I cover them in my lesson, just to work out what I'm meant to be learning there: "What is this section trying to teach me?" Get a firmer grip on the theory in practice and get my mind around it more. Can't hurt anyway!

I don't know that piece.. I'll see if I can listen to it somewhere later when I get home not done any practice at the weekend, but did do about 20 minutes or so on Friday. For some reason I rarely practice any instrument on a weekend, I think I should get into that habit

I don't know the Glazunov either. I will search it out. I prefer not to try material that's much too hard for me, but that does narrow the field quite a lot. Anything that keeps you (elisabeth) motivated through the viruses etc must be good. Just remember to keep using that 4th finger!

Hey guys

Thanks for making me feel so welcome here. I can't believe I was a bit scared!

I'm really enjoying the grade 2 stuff - working on some double stopping at the moment which is.. interesting I think I'm at a point right now which is somewhat reminiscent of when I was learning to drive and struggling with gear changes. All of a sudden it "clicks", and I think "woo I've got it" and the next time, I (with the driving metaphor) stall the car. It's SOOOOO frustrating. Anyone else identify with that?

My fourth finger is going ok but the D on the G string is proving almost impossible for me which is also incredibly frustrating. Agh. Practice practice practice I guess.

How's everyone else getting along?

Lesson on Weds.... can't wait

I think double stopping falls into the same category as 4th finger - the sooner you get used to doing it, the better. And there's no reason not to start doing it as soon as you can get the bow angle right for individual strings.Yup, and I have bad news for you: this doesn't stop happening. Or maybe it's good news, because the clicks keep happening as well as the stalls. You just have to remind yourself that the click did happen, and will happen more and more often until you can't believe you ever had any trouble with it.

I don't actually have a 4th finger. At least, I'm pretty sure it's not part of my body as it won't do as I ask it to!!

I borrowed the score of the Glazunov Elegy for viola from the library, and managed to struggle through the first few bars. My playing probably doesn't do it full justice, but I can tell it would be a lovely tune if properly played. I will try to find a recording.

But it reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask. The first few bars are quite playable in first position. But some previous borrower of this LIBRARY book has naughtily written in some fingerings, and they involve going into third position for the first full bar - i.e. 2nd finger on C string for a low G, then rising through A, Bb and D to 1st finger on D string for another G. I find it practically impossible to play it this way. Why would someone choose to do so, when it's clearly harder than doing it in first position? Is it because the open strings don't sound right? At least the open strings are more or less in tune ...

Sometimes it can sound bad in first. This may becuase of string crossings or open strings that would sound nicer as 4s.

But if playable in first then do that. Its what I do, until my teacher tells me to shift!

Well, some people might find the spread easier in third position, or they might want to avoid string crossings, or they might just want to mess around - sadly many string players seem to think the more you shift, the better you are. It's plain irritating most of the time.

I'm from the school of 'If it can be played in first, play it in first - shift when you have to and shift gradually rather than making enormous leaps' with the proviso that sometimes a certain tonal colour is necessary and so I shift for that (like the beginning of czardas by monti) or a certain effect like a glissando when a long shift is necessary.

Other than that, I'm with you and Violin Hero - stay in first if you can and only move when you have to or, artistically, need to.

Hey Primmers! Glad you've had a go at the Glazunov. The only recording I'm aware of is Track 5 on the CD 'Romanze - The Romantic Viola' which you can get through Amazon UK Marketplace sellers, although, like me, you'll probably have to wait for a US seller to get it shipped to you. It's a lovely CD all in, I think you'll enjoy it.

Well, I'm finally through with the latest virus and have just got back from a busy weekend and start a 3 week temp job tomorrow, but I hope I'll be able to get some prac in before my 10am lesson on Tues! Haven't touched my baby since my last lesson almost 2 weeks ago. Prac and I just don't seem to find time and strength for each other these days. Really must try and get this sorted as I think my teacher is beginning to get peeved with me ....

Good Luck for you lesson elisabeth

I've not been at home from Friday-Sunday and I'm off to Manchester today and Skiathos tomorrow, so I'll have to squeeze any playing in today if I can

I have a lesson next week Wednesday which will be... interesting with absolutely no practise this week

String players usually don't like open strings unless it's for a particular effect because you can't use vibrato on them. Once you get the hang of it, it's just as easy to play in 3rd position as 1st position, it's the shifting between that's a nightmare. If like me you are a little viola player with a slightly too large instrument, some things are actually easier in 3rd position because you don't have to stretch as far.

You can do vibrato on open strings or at least you make it sound like you are doing vibrato.

Eg on violin if you play the lowest g while doing vibrato on the g in first on d then it sounds as if the lowest g is being vbratoed.

Thats what my teacher taught me a while ago.

My viola teacher demo-ed the same thing with the C string.

Do you ever get times when you just fall out with your instrument, and its nothing to really do with the instrument?

I actually got to the point earlier this week where it made me feel physically sick to even pick up the case, let alone open it and get her out to play.


Having a lesson on weds kind of forced the issue but I got really upset because i'm getting so frustrated- I'm one of those horrendous perfectionists and its driving me crazy.


getting over it a bit now- have just got some random books out and been playing some stuff from those (which has broken the monotony a bit as well) but... ugh.

I think part of the frustration is that I invested in a (very) cheapish instrument when I bought her because I didn't know if I'd stick it, plus being a healthcare student I wasn't sure I'd have time to really commit. And despite the price, she sounds really quite nice (my friend who has an £1800 instrument keeps saying she wants to keep her and was really impressed) but I wish in some ways I'd gone for something that I'd really been able to do more with. I realise that sounds a bit arrogant having played for 7 months, but some of my frustration is in knowing that my cheapy bow etc isn't really .. MINE, as such.

*sounds stupid I know, but it makes sense to me...*

Invinciblemoon, I don't understand. Do you mean you've outgrown your instrument and need something better? That would be surprising if your friend with the £1800 instrument likes yours. But, if this is the case, why not get a better instrument? Is it that you can't afford one?