I'm just wondering if anyone had any good ideas for a singing workshop i'm doing in late august. Theres approximately 24 children, most of whom are approx 10 - 12. It lasts for two days with a show for parents at the end of the second day. The theme for the workshops (as requested by the children) is musicals/rock band.
Thanks!!

Stupid question maybe: Why musicals/rockbands for 10-12 year olds? I know you have written the kids requested it themselves, but if you go through with it, that actually means a bit of work in the arranging/transposing department, because especially rocksongs are seldom appropriate for voices that young. Are you prepared to do this?

You have a better selection in musicals, but obviously you have to select very carefully as well. No belting please for that age-group, even if they try to sound like their idols ...

Have you ever held workshops for that age-group before? What is your structure for it so far, then we might be able to help a bit more ...

Yes, what have you done before? Do you have a set structure? What are the aims of the workshop?

David

Maybe the aim is to have fun. Which would be a good aim.

Maybe we could aim to be encouraging to this newbie asking for ideas?

Musicals could include film music too. Most kids have favourite Disney films so a good book of Disney songs would be a good start.
You could begin each session with some fun vocal warm ups for the voice. I did one ages ago where the singers had to walk around reciting one line from a nursery rhyme first of all. It was a good ice breaker and helped them all to keep in time. For example one would begin with Little Jack Horner which he would repeat over and over. Then another would add Little Bo Peep, another London bridge is Falling Down and so on. This could be followed by some sung warm ups and some advice on basics for any who are not taking lessons.
Rounds would be useful too. There are plenty of good tunes to be found and you could add your own words if you like.
I am not at all clued up on rock band music but musicals gives you a massive choice. I expect that they are all High School Musical fans. Perhaps you coukld work on a scene from a suitable one as a project over the two day course.
Good luck with what sounds like a good idea to get children singing.

I don't see anyone not being encouraging, but we need to know some more information in order that we can make the best suggestions. I think we were slightly concerned about 10-12 year olds and the theme of 'rockbands.'

David

I think violin cjj was taking exception to the way the original poster was hit with a lot of blunt, slightly snooty questions which can come across as sounding a little bit like 'leave this sort of thing to the experts, which you clearly aren't' - that was the impression I got by reading the barrage of questions - but then as I'm familiar with the posters in question, I'm certain that this wasn't their intent.

I'm also fairly certain that the original poster was looking for some fun sung games that would suit childrens voices, which we can most certainly volunteer without needing to know their blood group - eh?

I disagree with that. I don't think the original post makes clear what ideas are required at all - they could be asking for songs, singing games, exercises, group activities etc. It would also depend in which context the workshop was taking place - is it for complete beginners or for singers with some experience etc. I don't think it's unfair to ask for some more information in order that we can give informed ideas.

It's not unfair to ask for more information at all - but the questions appeared to be a way of demonstrating that you were unhappy with the rock idea, without actually coming out and saying so.

It's so easy to come across as blunt and condescending on the internet - even if you don't mean it.

Re rockbands. I'm guessing that Led Zep or AC/DC are not going to have much suitable material! But the poppier end of things might. Consider, e.g. Coldplay ...

And this material seems to be doable by a chorus. Take a look at the wonderful, wonderful Young @ Heart chorus in the States. Average age about 72, I'd have thought, few of them strong singers, but rockin'. If the oldies can do it, maybe the youngsters can?

... and they do a great version of Coldplay's 'Fix You'.

Y@H's website is here: http://www.youngatheartchorus.com

And on Youtube: www.youtube.com/watch?v=55g_Wqki42g&feature=related

I should say that I know little about the mechanics of singing, or what might be suitable for young voices, so I bow to the singing teachers here if this seems a silly suggestion...

nick

Let's say that I was surprised and slightly concerned by that suggestion but hoped that more information may make it clear. I note that the original poster has not sought to reply to any of the messages in this thread.

Maybe they got frightened away!

In defence of the original poster, it can be a bit scary coming back onto a thread when you feel rightly or wrongly, that you have had your knuckles wrapped!

Etiquette would suggest that it is good idea however, especially if one might ever be temped to seek further advice.
The wealth of experience and confidence of established forum members can seem rather daunting at times It takes courage to ask for advice. Please try to remember that.
This is "your" home, they are strangers wandering in asking what may seem to you daft questions.
Sometimes the threads read like you resent the intrusion!

I am a member of another forum (art related) where I would be counted as an expert with a deep understanding of my subject so I have experienced both sides of this. ie:being the ignorant newbie(here) and being the more experienced voice of advice.
I hope that when wearing the latter hat I try to encourage and welcome people, not to scare them away.

J. *grabs paintbrushes, runs and hides*

Sings....'Hey momma hey momma'

GOOD POINTS!

I certainly don't consider this my home, and I certainly don't consider this thread an intrusion. I also don't consider it a daft question. We are, after all, concerned with the welfare of the students in question. Equally, as professionals, we seek to give the best advice we can. On this occasion, in order to give that, we felt we required further information. I admit that we were surprised by the 'rockband' idea.

Mezzo made a good point that music of this genre is "seldom appropriate for voices that young." That is quite true, but as has been suggested, a bit of arranging and transposing could do the trick. Both Mezzo and I asked whether the poster had run such a workshop before and already had structure - maybe they had a format which already worked? Maybe they are constrained by an organisation or by other organisers? The aims of the workshop could be purely fun, or there could be a specific idea such as 'music theatre' or 'performance skills' or suchlike.

I think that the original poster has been offered some good advice and in a constructive way. None of us know it all and we can only speak often from experience. No one's knuckles have been rapped and no one has said that what the original poster is doing is wrong.

David

I can only see advice having been offered by Petrat and Nickjones...

Mezzo mentioned that belting was a bad idea - but that sounded honestly more like a reproach than an honest bit of advice - perhaps this is because she was phrasing it in a language that is not hers.

Maybe I missed your advice, David? Can you point it out to me, please?

Maybe you're just picking holes in this thread now?

I haven't offered any because I don't know what advice is being sought. All the original message says is "I'm just wondering if anyone had any good ideas for a singing workshop i'm doing in late august." Fine, I'm happy to offer ideas, but what ideas? Songs, exercises, games, music, accompaniments etc. etc. All that would be useful would be a bit more background to this particular workshop and clarification of what ideas are sought. I don't think that's too much to ask.

No, I don't believe I am actually. Your post stated that you felt the poster had been given some good advice in a constructive way - implying that the harsh attitude people were questioning had been in some way attenuated by the helpful advice given - but as the harshness and help appear to have come from different quarters I don't see how the one has anything to do with the other.

I think you came across as overly reproachful when you replied to the original poster and I don't believe that you have offered anything constructive since, least of all any advice.

If what you meant when mentioning constructive advice, was 'well perhaps I was a little harsh, but at least others have now given helpful advice' then that's what you should have said - alternatively if your mention of advice was referring to your own contributions, then I don't see it.

No one is suggesting, either, that you are supposed to know it all. Speak from experience, as you said in one of your recent messages. If you've got experience in this domain, offer it up for those that don't. If you don't have experience in this domain, asking a load of pointed questions won't make it seem like you have - even if you do try to piggyback on the helpful advice of others afterwards.

Like I said, I don't believe you or Mezzo were trying to be harsh, but I believe that on the singing forum more than on the others there is a frequent tendency to shoot down those who dare to ask for advice, veiling our own self-importance behind flimsy 'warnings' of the dangers of the road to those who are less enlightened than we presume to be.

So I can only see two possible situations here - either you were trying to be stern to impress with your sageness, or your first message was a little clumsy and you're about to give some great advice like Petrat managed to do without pretending to need the ins and outs of it all, for example.

I'd rather believe it was the second.

With due respect folks , could this discussion be taken off-board, and perhaps continued by PM? I'm not sure that this is helpful to the original poster, or to the substantive discussion.

nick

Well, I give up, because I can't seem to get what I am saying to be taken on board.

I don't think anyone has been harsh, and don't think that asking for clarification is wrong. I only originally echoed what Mezzo had said, I and think what was said there was right. No one has been 'shot down' as you put it. I am quite willing to offer any advice or ideas I can when there has been clarification of what is required. This, so far, has not been forthcoming. I'm am not pretending anything, and I'm not trying to be anything.

I cannot see why it is so awful to ask for some more information?

Anyway, as I say, I give up really because I think people are just picking holes now and seeing what they want to see in order to belittle the responses of others. I see no point in continuing by PM as we are obviously not going to agree.

Ooops, what happened here?

First of all: I didn't mean to be harsh to anyone, if it came across like that, then sorry. But I admit that the OP question made me wonder if the workshop has any structure yet. That's why I asked, and it certainly would have helped if the OP gave us an idea of what she planned so far, how the structure will be, if she'll mainly be working with groups or if there will be solo-work involved, with what kind of accompaniment she works, if other performance aspects should be covered etc.
Also if she looks for warm-ups or songs, performance games and so on. I won't sit down and write three hours about warm-up routines for kids if that's not at all what the OP looks for. And I honestly cannot see what's wrong with not willing to give random advice ...

The advice I have already given (although it is obviously not seen as such) was mainly on the repertoire-side, because that's the only slight hint we got about the workshop. And I'll stick to my guns here: Rock is mostly not appropriate for that age group. That's not belittling, but serious concern for the kids' voices if it is sung in its original settings. The OP will have to arrange or transpose if the up-to-date charts-stuff is taken into consideration, therefore my question if she will be prepared to do this, because it means extra-work (which is absolutely necessary in that case).

As for Belting: That's not belittling either, but again advice to not get into the trap of letting the young ones shout along to their favourite tunes, trying to copy their idols (and that's what they do if you don't take care). I have two so-called "Stageschools" in my neighbourhood, both run by (self-taught pop)singers who let exactly that age-group belt out their favourite tunes, and they think there's nothing wrong with it. I know it is tempting to think this is no problem, but it is.

So forgive me my slight concern when I read about the basics of this workshop. I still say: I'm really willing to help every newbie, but I need more information to give sound advice, and I'm also not willing to hold back concerns if they are there. The OP has every chance to enlighten us with what exactly she needs ...

Well, for what it's worth, I, too, felt that some people came across as being a bit patronising. I say "came across", because I'm sure that it was not meant that way. The written word can often be misinterpreted because one cannot hear the tone of voice or see facial expressions. So, I recommend that people read what they have written before submitting it, and try to feel what a reader might read into what they have written.

It occurs to me that the main reason children ask to sing musicals and rock band stuff is that it is the only music they can think of. It is often the only stuff their teachers know!

What about spirituals and some of the folk songs with lots of useful mouth exercise choruses, and great stories.

Good luck, enjoy it,
Getting young people singing is one of the best things in the whole world.