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Charly
Hi everybody,
I need help with this chord symbol, V6/5 (6 as superscript, 5 as subscript), not sure what to make of it. I found this on the Robert Ottman book, "Advanced Harmony". The text reads:

In Figure 1.1 (key: A major), the two chords identified as V65 / vi-vi when heard out of context sound like V65 -i of F# minor. Similarly, in its context in the example, a temporary and fleeting impression of F# is created. It is quickly nullified by the following strong cadence in A major, but this slight excursion into another tonal area enhances the harmonic interest of this particular phrase of music.

Could you please explain to me that chord? Would it be too much to ask to also explain that sentence a little bit ? I get the point, but more by plain feeling than by fully understanding it, mainly because I cannot figure out what V65 / vi-vi or V65 -i refers to.
Thanks a lot!
Charly

PS: I will leave a picture of that chord in its musical context here, since a message told me I cannot add dynamic images huh.gif
-the chord in question is inside a square-
Jason_piano
QUOTE(Charly @ Jun 29 2008, 12:07 AM) *

Hi everybody,
I need help with this chord symbol, V6/5 (6 as superscript, 5 as subscript), not sure what to make of it. I found this on the Robert Ottman book, "Advanced Harmony". The text reads:

In Figure 1.1 (key: A major), the two chords identified as V65 / vi-vi when heard out of context sound like V65 -i of F# minor. Similarly, in its context in the example, a temporary and fleeting impression of F# is created. It is quickly nullified by the following strong cadence in A major, but this slight excursion into another tonal area enhances the harmonic interest of this particular phrase of music.

Could you please explain to me that chord? Would it be too much to ask to also explain that sentence a little bit ? I get the point, but more by plain feeling than by fully understanding it, mainly because I cannot figure out what V65 / vi-vi or V65 -i refers to.
Thanks a lot!
Charly

PS: I will leave a picture of that chord in its musical context here, since a message told me I cannot add dynamic images huh.gif
-the chord in question is inside a square-


basically it is a C sharp 7 chord which is the dominant seventh chord of F sharp minor. The 6 refers to the interval of the root above the bass and the 5 refers to the seventh implying a 1st inversion. chord vi is a substitute for I and they have suggested a move to F sharp minor (the relative minor) for interest which leads to the cadence in A major
organ_dummy

I assume that you are from the US as you are using the Ottman book.

The chord in question is a secondary dominant chord. If you re-stack the notes in thirds, you get C#-E#-G#-B, which is a V7 chord of F# minor. Since the actual bass note is E#, the chord is in 1st inversion.

Here is the full figured bass for a seventh chord:
Root position = 7/5/3
1st inversion = 6/5/3
2nd inversion = 6/4/3
3rd inversion = 6/4/2

In actual practice, most people would use abbreviated figured bass:
Root position = 7
1st inversion = 6/5
2nd inversion = 4/3
3rd inversion = 4/2

These arabic numbers represent intervals between the upper voices and the bass note.

The phrase is in A major. Since the F# minor triad is vi in A major, the correct label for the chord in question is V65/vi - vi. This is the 1st inversion of the dominant seventh of the submediant triad of A major.

Charly
Thanks! you guys are awesome, very clear indeed smile.gif .

QUOTE(organ_dummy @ Jun 29 2008, 12:13 AM) *

I assume that you are from the US as you are using the Ottman book.

The chord in question is a secondary dominant chord. If you re-stack the notes in thirds, you get C#-E#-G#-B, which is a V7 chord of F# minor. Since the actual bass note is E#, the chord is in 1st inversion.


Actually I am not from the US but I am in the US. Since my music theory is so rusty by now, I decided to get a book, so I got the Ottman book. To my frustration I got stuck in pretty much the fist sentence since I had never studied with this type of notation (I could say I was as lost as the first time I watched baseball here) sad.gif
One of the things that confused me is the order of the notes: The chord that is shown is (from bottom to top):
E# - B - G# - C#, so I didn't thought of it as a 1st inversion (E# - G# - B - C#) So I guess then that in these cases the position of the fifth (G#) and seventh (B) don't matter that much and you still consider the chord a 1st inversion regardless of how these two notes are stacked, as long as the third is the bass and the root is on top? As I said before it has been a long time since I studied it; I had the idea that a second or third inversion had to have a certain order of notes, but I guess it makes sense not to be that strict with the order when studying the theory behind it. Is this correct unsure.gif ?
Again, thanks a lot for the feedback biggrin.gif !
fsharpminor
Well I ought to know this one......Yep, its definitely my Dominant Seventh ! biggrin.gif
organ_dummy
QUOTE(Charly @ Jun 29 2008, 05:20 PM) *

Actually I am not from the US but I am in the US... To my frustration I got stuck in pretty much the fist sentence since I had never studied with this type of notation...

One of the things that confused me is the order of the notes: The chord that is shown is (from bottom to top):
E# - B - G# - C#, so I didn't thought of it as a 1st inversion (E# - G# - B - C#)...



What kind of chord notation did you learn in your previous studies?

The bass note determines the position of a chord. It doesn't matter how you arrange the notes in the upper voices.
Charly
QUOTE



What kind of chord notation did you learn in your previous studies?

The bass note determines the position of a chord. It doesn't matter how you arrange the notes in the upper voices.


Well, I would have just called it a C#7/E#, since the instrument I play is a guitar. But now that I think about it it does make perfect sense for it to be a 1st inversion despite the order of the B and the G#, since I would have still called it a C#7/E# despite those two notes anyway!
I told you my music theory knowledge was pretty rusty unsure.gif
I hope my question was not too stupid since I am sure I will have others as simple as this one blush.gif, so lets just forget that I ever asked! wink.gif

Thanks again guys for the help
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