This first post has been totally rewritten given the subsequent feedback that it was impossible to understand.

Here is a pattern which explains to me how the fingers for violin or viola fall in relation to each other in any major key in any given position.

1. In any major scale in any given position where the fingers are arranged "space space space" on one string ("string 1"), the position of the fingers on the string below ("string 2") will be in a parallel position, except for the first finger, which will have moved up a semitone to touch the second finger, and will be arranged "touching, space, space".

2. The position of the fingers on the next string down ("string 3") will be totally parallel to those on string 2.

3. The position of the fingers on the next string down ("string 4") will be in a parallel position to those on string 3 except for the second finger, which will have moved up a semitone to touch the third finger, and will be arranged "space, touching, space".

4. The position of the fingers on the next string down ("string 5") will be totally parallel to those on string 4.

5. The position of the fingers on the next string down ("string 6") will be in a parallel position to those on string 5 except for the third finger, which will have moved up a semitone to touch the fourth finger, and will be arranged "space, space, touching".

6. The position of the fingers on the next string down ("string 7") will be totally parallel to those on string 6.

7. The position of the fingers on the next string down ("string 8") will be in a parallel position to those on string 7, except for the fourth finger, which will have moved up a semitone so that the fingers are arranged "space, space, space".

8. String 8 is in fact identical to string 1, apart from the whole hand being a semitone nearer the bridge. The above pattern therefore goes round and round in circles for ever.

By identifying where on the A or E string the tonic falls, and remembering that there is always a semitone beneath the tonic, and that the third and fourth notes of the major scale are always parallel to the seventh and eighth notes of of the scale on the string (or strings) below, it is possible to identify where in the above cycle a given key in a given position falls, and to understand how the fingers will fall in relation to each other accordingly.

This is not a substitute for also learning the names of the notes on the stave, and the names of the notes on the fingerboard ("the map of the fingerboard".)

QUOTE (zoda @ Oct 11 2004, 03:57 PM)

I suspect that this post will be of little interest to many of the musicians on this site;  my own experience of orchestras has tended to be that nearly everyone except me has always known exactly where the fingers should fall whatever the key or position. [...] Well there it is! totally indecipherable to most people no doubt,  and unnecessary in any event if you know or can remember where the fingers go by pure memory.  If like me,  however,  you have a reasonable head for logic,   but a less than wonderful visual or spatial memory,  please persevere and give the above a bit of a try,  because although I don't pretend to be any great shakes now,  I'm certainly not nearly as hopeless as I was! David I should add - although the above applies equally to violin and viola,  I don't know how to adapt it to Cello and Double Bass,  because you only get to use 3 finger placements in the lower positions on the cello, and two on Double Bass.

I have to admit that although I thought your huge post was interesting I haven't been able to understand the method you are recommending. This is partly because I play double bass and occasional 'cello, not violin, but the principles of positions and hand shapes are not too difficult. I suppose the main disincentive to putting lots of effort into understanding your logic is the strong feeling I have that at best it will be only of value while your fingers are learning where the notes are and not thereafter. My 'cello teacher used to say, "Eventually you make friends with the fingerboard", and while I always believed her, I am only now, after over 30 years as an amateur bass player with a modest technique, beginning to experience this.

Although my approach to sight reading on either bass or 'cello has rather little in common with standard technique on upper strings, in that I have never had a name for any hand position, and need to know only what note I am playing, I do wonder whether any other string players eventually get freedom of the keys by a mental approach that has similarities to mine: I know the sounds and the number of semitones of any interval, diatonic or chromatic (this mainly comes from singing and playing the horn; the remote spellings involving double sharps or flats take longer to work out), and these translate into distances on the finger board, either along one string (the interval has to be very small for this to apply on the bass) or across strings. I can locate some notes absolutely, of course, but the number of these is still increasing, slowly, and in music in a conventional style (not second Viennese school) I can detect errors immediately by ear.

The above describes the mental component of an intermediate technique. Practice of scales, exercises, studies, orchestral excerpts and forthcoming difficult passages should all lead one towards a more instinctive approach to reading music, in which ones eye recognises a much larger chunk than two notes, and the fingers, guided by an enlarged motor area in the brain, deliver the required movements subconsciously. IMO, your method should also be an intermediate one.

This post has been removed by me, as my rewriting of the first post makes it redundant.

Good grief, Zoda, are you a mathematician??? Your explanation was analytical to the point of being mathematical, but would this really be a realistic way to teach students where to place their digits?

I'm a professional violinist who got quite lost reading your posting - although I think I eventually followed the pattern of your thinking. However, if I was to try and explain finger placement like that to any of my students, they'd probably run away and not come back!

Being fortunate in that I've never struggled with where I should be on the fingerboard in any given key, I suppose I've never had to think of analysing things the way you have.

Hi Amanda L,

I have rewritten the first post and hope it makes more sense,

David

Ahhhhh!! that's better, easier to understand now

I agree most definitely with you last comment, that it's no substitute for learning the notes or a 'map of the fingerboard'. I have several students (inherited from other teachers) that can't read the notes and do not have a mental map of the fingerboard - hence anything above 3rd position is of unknown territory.

The downfall is that the bad habit of 'parrot fashion' learning and simply copying whatever their previous teacher did has become so engrained in their heads, recognising notes (let alone keys and understanding scales) fogs their brain even more.

Finger placement and actually reading the music has to go hand-in-hand.

Thanks Amanda L! Anyone who now understands the above 7 string pattern has Kenm and Amanda L to thank.

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