Ugh, I'm still fighting with 4th finger! It sounds flat all the time and, if I ever get the note right, (rare and uncomfy), then it drags my 3rd finger out and makes that horribly sharp. It just doesn't go up and down above the string like my teacher's does and I can't move it very fast at all. I have to keep my fingers down for one of the prep test exercises too, which makes it even harder!

Anyone got any ideas on how I can improve here?

Is your viola too big? Sorry if that seems blindingly obvious... Otherwise, is your thumb forward enough (I dont move my thumb enough when I shift on the cello so I sometimes play flat.) Sorry I can't help you more...

Some solutions:

Check thumb moves psoition with the hand. If yuou shift to 3rd and leave thumb in 1st you would find it very hard to playin tune all the time.

Also do you have a straight left arm or is it bent? If its bent it means your hand iis clamped against the instrument. Not very good.

Finally you could be like me and have small hands and find stretching for 4th fingers hard! Even though I have to play them in like very piece I play these days as I an advanced player.

Elisabeth, I used to have this problem on my viola and my teacher at the time recommended putting the fourth finger in place so it was in tune, then the first in the correct place - check the thumb, seeing where it needs to be for both of these fingers to be in tune, then put the other fingers in. Play a five tone scale backwards to the open string and keep repeating until it's in tune all the time.

Hope it helps!

Allan
(I also find it useful to keep my hand higher than normal, keeping all the joints above the level of the fingerboard.)

I have small fingers and I use to hate using my 4th finger but now I use it all the time! I find that practicing the E major scale helps i.e. E, F#, G# amd the 4th finger A, check that A with the open string A. It made my 4th finger a lot stronger, I can even do vibrato on my little finger, which is amazing cos I really struggled with the 4th finger last year. It's all about strengthening it and getting use to where it should go, but don't over do it or you'll strain it!

Also get your teacher to check that your holding the violin correctly, ur arm and thumb position are all correct.

At first it seems to make things harder, but it's worth doing this whenever possible: it helps not only with intonation, but also with learning to use the 4th independently of the others. There are lots of exercises (eg Sevcik), based on the various finger patterns, which require you to keep the fingers down, and I find them quite helpful for this 4th finger problem.

I don't know why teachers don't get beginners using the 4th finger right away, or rather as soon as they progress beyond open strings. Many people get used to using just the first three, and then have to rethink their playing position when they start using the 4th. It's worse if, like me, you have a short 4th. But I know you (elisabeth_rb) don't have that problem - you said so in another thread.

I've got very small hands AND a short little finger, but manage to cope with a 15" viola without pain or discomfort.

Try positioning your hand based on the fourth finger and then reach back with the others, rather than basing your hand position on the first finger and trying to reach forward with the fourth finger.

Remember that everyone has different hands shapes, differing amounts of flexibility and so one, so bear this in mind if your teacher is becoming overly prescriptive about your hand position - they may well be thinking only of their own, based on their own physique. You are not them and your hands are different to theirs.

If there's one thing that's really worth remembering is trying to space your fingers out from the knuckles on the back of the hand. If you can learn to open the fingers from the knuckles, your finger spacing at the tips will also widen considerably and you will naturally develop a hand shape that keeps the pads of the finger tips above the strings, ready for action.

But isn't this one of the points on which adult learners are at a major disadvantage? Don't you acquire a lot more flexibility if you start playing as a child?

Come to think of it, is it a bad idea for an adult to try and learn the viola rather than the violin?

I'm not sure this is true. When my daughter first started using her fourth finger on the cello when she was about seven, she found that she could have either her first or her fourth finger in tune but not both. Now (age 11) she complains that using an extended fourth finger makes her hand hurt.

The major difference between her seven-year-old self and an adult was that it didn't particularly bother her that one note was always out of tune.

I think AmandaL's remark about stretching from the knuckle is really interesting and am going to get daughter to try tomorrow. Now, someone has mentioned it, it's obvious that she is not stretching from the knuckle.

By coincidence I've just been watching professorv's youtube video on Wohlfahrt Op. 45 No. 1, and he recommends keeping the thumb low (under the neck, rather than up on the side) if your 4th is short or weak. Seems obvious - once it's pointed out.

Thanks for all the ideas. Will have to just hope this comes in time to some degree.

My viola isn't too big. I tried a 15" one (quite considerably smaller than a 15") and it made no difference. I'm only working towards prep test (pre-grade one), so I haven't done E major scale yet, or shifting, but my thumb is OK as my teacher has done quite a bit of work on thumb position and where the viola neck rests on the thumb pad etc. I don't have small hands either and I started using 4th finger within about 3 months of starting learning, if not sooner, so it's been a year already and zero improvement. I just can't seem to get the 4th finger to get in place. It seems to lag behind and there's always a pause whilst I have to force it to get onto the string when needed - then it's usually flat!!! Ugh!

My work for the prep test is coming along nicely and I think I'll be fine on the set piece, piece of my own choice and also the first two of the exercises from memory. It's section 1c that kills me - use of 4th finger on D and G strings.

[Goes away to sob piteously -esp as there's no decent blubbing smilie!]

I really struggle with my 4th finger, it maddens me as when I use it my 3rd finger collapses and we sort of grind to a halt. Im back playing after a 20 yr break but I had this same problem back then. I got round it by playing in 2nd or 3rd position to avoid 4th fingers but my violin teacher is making me use it more to strengthen it. Its a nightmare.

Well maybe, just for your exams you could shift to 3rd in 2nd, 2nd in 3rd or 1st in 4th.

Three things to add:

1 - Make sure your left wrist is down, not up (ie wrist bent AWAY from the neck, not towards).

2 - Put the fingers on their tips: the little one especially likes to lie down

3 - Develop the muscles in the little finger. Carry a clothes peg around with you (one of those ones that has a wire spring in the middle). In idle moments hold it between thumb and little finger (TIPS remember) and squeeze very slowly against the spring and very slowly release. (Don't overdo it - remember Schumann.)





It's a bad idea for ANYONE to try and learn the viola.




(I can make jokes about viola players because I am one.)

Keeping the thumb low is particularly useful if using an extension (ie. stretching 4th finger up to a C on the E string for example without shifting from 1st position) and also when playing double, triple or quadruple stops.

It's interesting to note that the use of extensions and shifting only one position at a time, was the method adopted by violinists of the Baroque era, mainly because the lack of chin and shoulder rest simply made large leaps up and down the fingerboard impossible to do.

I respectfully beg to differ If we don't take ourselves and our instrument seriously, then who the heck else will??!!



Oh, the 4th finger sounded a bit better today when I was working on it. I guess I'm just gonna have to stick with it and hope for gradual improvement. My pieces and exercises for the prep test are all coming along well, (I guess the 4th finger exercise could be a lot worse.....), and I got my date today. I have 3 weeks to make my hubby and neighbours suffer the same pieces......

Good luck! Remember to take a break from your piece and play something else, or you might get bored!

I'm sure your 4th finger will improve, give it a few months and it'll definitely get stronger.

Oh, I do play other things as well!

My 4th finger hasn't done much in the way of improving in over a year so far, but then I haven't used it that much, what with re-starting with a new teacher and so on. Anyway.....

Oh, how lovely to see someone who can spell 'definitely'. The quantity of folk who put an 'a' in....