Just a quick heads up to anyone who might read the Marco Raposo website - it would appear that the company is not at all active in ecology, despite claims to the contrary on the website - several luthiers I met with this week-end are refusing to buy from them anymore because of the deforestation issues.

Might just be worth weighing up the pros and cons and trying to a balanced view before purchasing from them.

Allan

Makes me glad I didn't buy the Raposo cello bow that I was trying!

I eventually went for a Yitamusic bow, off of ebay. Several 'session cellists' I know are using them and they swear by the quality. However, I don't agree with the ecological or ethical aspects of China either, but it was the quality for price that sold it for me (pernumbuco stick, silver mounted, snakewood frog). If I like it, I'll probably buy another as a spare.

when i chose my bow, i went solely on the bow that soundest nicest with my violin, and i still love my marco raposo bow.

Well, yes, that's a very valid way of looking at it, but I also do consider (with anything I do or buy) our little blue planet, spaceship Earth, that humans seems to be destroying very rapidly. If we deforest and the planet's eco system eventually collapses because of it, we cannot simply vacate to somewhere else... there is nowhere else.

Thank you rosfrog for raising the issue. I will certainly make colleagues and pupils of mine aware.

There goes one of my Goegraphy exam case studies... though that's hardly important
Does make me feel slightly guilty for buying one, but that was nearly a year ago and I had no idea about it

Oh no!!!!

Their 'ecology' standpoint was one of the main reasons I tried out their bows otherwise I was quite sold on a Carbon-fibre to reduce the 'wooden' bow guilt trip!!! I only bought my Raposo bow a couple of weeks ago!

It's too late to do anything about it now - I can't sell it because that would be no help. I suppose the only thing to do is make a donation to the pro-ecology bodies who are trying to protect the rainforest. Does anybody know of a worthwhile charity in this area? (Not the WWF because they spend too much of their donated money on marketing and not enough 'in the field'). I normally give my charitable percentage to UK animal charities.. but perhaps I need to look further afield.

I like the bow very much but now I feel bad. Even in the (spoilt) UK we need to shoulder global responsibilities.

You're glad you didn't buy a Raposo bow, but you bought a Chinese one, when the Chinese are notorious for using smuggled pernambuco?

If you would like to read my post again, you'll see I did quote that I don't agree with China's ethical stance (on a lot of things, animal and human). I don't know where Yitamusic source their pernumbuco from and I don't know of anyone who could verify the information either, so I cannot speak for Yita's ethical behaviour. If I subsequently found out Yitamusic did used smuggled wood, then I would boycott them as well.

On the Marco Raposo issue, there are clearly several people (violin/bow dealers) 'in the know' about the company practices.

OK, so who are these people who are "in the know"? Not possibly dealers who have a vested interest in selling rival products, perchance? And what exactly are the "company practices" that are so questionable?

Regarding Yitamusic, many of their bows are being sold on ebay for about the price of a pernambuco blank. There are no economies of scale for correctly obtained pernambuco, so I wonder how this can be achieved?

These people 'in the know' were several luthiers I met at a conference this weekend. None of them makes bows, so they have no vested interest and several of them said that they were sad they couldn't buy them anymore because good quality cheap bows are hard to come by, but ethics didn't permit them to continue. One guy even had a stock of them that he refused to sell (at a personal loss, evidently as he had already bought them). They were all quite adamant and were aware that they would likely lose sales because of not having cheaper bows available.


Lottie et al - already having a Raposo bow shouldn't make you feel guilty, there was no contrary information available at the time and even if you sent it back, it's already been made - there's nothing you can do about it. Enjoy the bow without thinking about who made it, I say.

You still haven't said what the alleged dubious practices are/were. And of course you don't have to make bows to have a vested interest in selling them.
To refuse to sell bows that you have already bought is simply idiotic. Does the guy think the ###### things will grow again if he plants them in his garden?
What was the conference, by the way?

It was for the meilleurs ouvriers de France, I think.

I suspect that the person who doesn't wish to sell the bows simply doesn't want to be associated with the company any more, placing his reputation above a quick buck - sounds like good long term business sense to me.

Have we touched a nerve here? You're quite aggressive about it all...


EDIT: Incidentally, I believe I did state what said practises were in my first message - the proposed reforestation programmes are simply a load of marketing claptrap on their website - it appears that they are not involved at all in such programmes and would therefore appear to be guilty of effectively tricking people into buying bows made from an endangered species of wood.

I don't feel aggressive about this issue at all, and the only thing in this thread that has touched a nerve with me is the condemnation, based entirely on hearsay, of what I believe to be a reputable and responsible company. I also think it's important to be clear about the ecological issue. The use of pernambuco for violin bows is not a cause of deforestation. Rather, the process of deforestation (to create pasture land) is a major cause of the scarcity of pernambuco. So the issue is not saving the planet, but saving the pernambuco tree for future generations of bowmakers and musicians. If people want to make a stand on this issue and boycott something, they should boycott the Chinese factories that are wasting pernambuco resources on a breathtaking scale (they are even making pernambuco fittings now!)

I did put a topic on here about 18 months ago, asking people to boycott Chinese string instument manufacturing, but was rather shot down in flames.

The fact that the West has a taste for cheap goods, is the problem. The result of this could be blamed on poor management of the UKs manufacturing business, poor management by the government(s) of our economy, and of course, greed, by companies in the West who can out-source their manufacturing to the far east for peanuts and make themselves a multi-billion profit in return - M&S come to mind at this moment.

Leading on from this, wealth is relative to your situation and the economic climate you live in. Although the UK is considered a rich country, look around you. How many truly wealthy people are there? Very few amongst the 60 million or so overall population. The majority of those who swan around in their 4x4, live in their luxury appartment and wear Gucci shoes, are doing so at the risk of a debt they will probably never work or live long enough to pay off. They will very probably die still owing £100,000+

Contrary to massaged government figures, the average salary in this country is not really £28,000. The real person on the street is probably on only around £20,000 or less, even in the south east of the UK. The figures are warped by those who are grossly overpaid in management jobs, that shouldn't even be there.

The cost of living in the UK is horrendous. Food prices increase week on week, along with already outrageously priced petrol. More and more people are struggling to even pay household bills, so when it comes to clothes, or other items, for example musical instruments, where will they turn to for something that doesn't break the remaining bank balance? .... goods made in China or India, where the workers are paid a few pence and therefore the item sells in the West for what we call 'affordable' prices.

The cutting down of forests to make way for pasture land is driven by the ever rising human population and it's demand for meat. Land that isn't used as pasture has palm plants put on it - the resulting oil ends up in shampoo and other personal care products! Again, with a human population that is exploding globally at an ever increasing rate, how much longer can the eco system support us? If China and India want to live like the West (and who are we to say they can't), then we would need something like 10 planet Earths to provide us with enough resources. This cannot be done. Sooner or later our bubble of complacency is going to burst, violently!

But now, you seem to be a rather staunch advocate of Chinese instruments/bows. Why the change of heart?

When i bought my bow, i had no idea about this so i don't feel bad about using it at all. next time i buy a bow i will take it into consideration.

I'm afraid I would want the point of view regarding how good or bad a company is from an independent authority of some sort, not from someone in the business whether they make bows or not.

Stringmum, it's interesting what you say.

People seem to want a totally objective point of view when it comes to hearing bad things about the company, but don't seem to mind mindlessly believing what the company itself has published on its website without needing any kind of back up from an objective source... I wonder why that is? Because it's the easiest way, perhaps?

I think everyone has to make their own mind up, but I know that several luthiers independently told me the same thing about the same company and that they stand to make no profit from their refusal to buy as these were the only cheap bows that most of them stocked. My decision is made not to buy from this supplier nor to recommend them, now that I've given my story others are free to choose their own course of action too.

I will reiterate, I do not agree with the Chinese ethical stance on a lot of things, whether it be human or animal, damaging the planet etc.

I would hardly call the purchase of one Chinese made bow a staunch advocate. I regrettably got an attack of the Western world syndrome - it suited my budget for a spare bow.

I do sometimes wonder where many of the so-called German bows are really made. Not in Germany I bet. Gewa cases are a German company, but I know for a fact not all their range are actually made in Germany. A lot of them are made in China, as are many other commercially available instrument cases.

When it came to sourcing a suitable cello case, I found a case maker in Wales who made one to order for me. I always source genuinely British made goods where available at a reasonable price. Even my violin is English!