I am barging into the string forum here to get some idea from the experts on an instrument I can't play in any sense of the word.

This morning I was doing some typesetting from manuscript into Sibelius as part of an ongoing project at my centre. This piece scored for violin, cello and piano. At one point the violin had been scored incredibly high (I'm talking 4, 5 ledger lines or higher) and Sibelius showed the notes in red, meaning 'too high', or at least not a comfortable pitch. This piece was written for professional playing (I think) so 'amateur' ranges don't come into it.

Clearly unfretted strings can go higher and higher by moving their finger further up, even beyond the fingerboard (seen it done), but what is a realistic range to write violin for?

Well, I've just had a try to see how far I can get without it becoming really messy ! I can play a two octave scale on any string with reliable intonation, which takes me nearly to the end of the fingerboard. If I try to play higher, it gets unreliable because I'm a lowly folk fiddler and our noses bleed when we go up there - but anything to the E two octaves above the last space in treble should be achievable for most decent players, I think. A good player would be able to add a bit more onto that.

I'm going back down to first position now before I fall.

crikey 12 lines?!

The piece 'Zigeunerweisen' by Sarasate goes to top G which is above the 7th ledger line (two octaves above the first G on the E string). It's rare to go much higher than that otherwise you'll end up right off the fingerboard!

As a general rule of thumb, when I'm composing I tend to keep my violin range the same as my flute (not going above the C on top of the 5th line above the stave).

Neil, does your composing software allow you to make the octave sign to denote you mean an octave above what's written?

I have no idea but I saw Nicola Benedetti play the Szymanowski concerto last night (just incredible *sighs*) and she looked like she was tickling the bridge with her fourth finger. The amazing part is that the note sounded pure and clear across the top of a large orchestra. I've tried going up there and it's just a fuzzy squeak.

But then Nicola can do anything

Nicola and everybody else like her (Vengerov, Kennedy, Joshua Bell etc etc) started very young, had the best teachers and practised an unbelievable number of hours on a daily basis all through her childhood. She was very, very driven and still is. They all are. They're also all very talented but talent is no use without mind boggling amounts of sheer hard work.

Hey hello cello, don't know if you were replying to me here - but by my calculations the e two octaves above the one in the last space in the treble clef would only be one note above six leger lines - twelve leger lines would give you - I think - a b sounding three octaves and a fifth above the final space in the treble clef.

In one of my pieces i go up to a high B as in... not the first B on the E string, but the B after. 5 ledger lines
and this is pretty comfortable to play

This E comes up quite a lot in the orchestral stuff I've been playing recently... Luckily there is a harmonic up there

I''ve had to go up to the G above that before: it's when ther are tons of ledger lines AND it's marked the octave above that it gets a bit disconcerting...

I do folky stuff half the time, and it's true - I've only come across a couple of pieces where 3rd position's required!

D'you know of J. Scott Skinner, a supposed "folkie" (I don't reckon his music was folk - it doesn't sound folky at all)? I played "The President" by him a while back (think it was on the Grade 8 syllabus at one point).

The first bar is a four-octave E arpeggio in semiquavers, which is quite good fun... It lands on the E you mantioned, paused - that's the most exposed really high note I've had to play (and it's jolly exposed, as the piece is unaccompanied)

I do know Skinner - some great stuff there. I've played the President before too - nice piece.

I reckon for position changing, I can probably think of thirty or so reels that need third, but only about ten that need to go anywhere above fifth. A fair few barndances, highlands and hornpipes need at least fifth too. We also tend to double each other one octave apart in our session on some pieces - this can take you quite high at times, especially if it's a reel that already goes into third anyway!

oops must have counted spaces as lines

Mmm that can always be fun: still, I prefer playing the octave above rather than taking it to the octave below and finding you can't go low enough! A lot of folkies seem to despise changing position

Maybe it's like baroque music for position shifting - because the instrument was held in a different way and soulder rests weren't really used, shifting positions was tricky (harder coming down than going up), which is why a lot of it's in 1st...

I started to realise how hard position changing was when playing my rebec: you hold it just below shoulder level and, with gut strings, it's hard to shift positions...

Stick to a four octave range from the bottom G string (seven ledger lines) and you won't cause too many problems for too many violinists - even if it's a problem for Sibelius!

Yeah I tend to take the upper octave in doubling too. As for shifting, I think you just have to think differently - I play with no shoulder or chinrest and have had to become creative in ways to shift or when to shift.

Lots of harmonic playing right up there, where you can create notes that are literally formed by just lightly touching the string with the fingertip, no pushing down.

Quality of violin will dictate how high you can go before the 'fuzziness' sets in, but in high positions, the bow needs to be used very close to the bridge.

Why? What's the physics behind it?

The first violin in the finale of Mahler VII goes to a super-D - three octaves and a second above middle C, or 9 ledger lines.

If the length of string between the finger stopping the note and the bridge is small, then the vibrations this portion of string can make are very restricted. There is a limit on how short it can be and still be able to oscillate sufficiently to produce a note, or even a sound.

Harmonics are produced differently, so these very very high notes are possible because the strings are not 'stopped' in the conventional manner of pressing the string down onto the finger board.

Three octaves of D major (from D above middle C) are required at Grade 8.

the acoustics of string harmonics are quite similar to those of a brass instrument. a string has many modes of vibration, the simplest being the fundamental, where the string is stationary at either end (where its fixed) and moving most in the middle. By placing your finger in the middle of the string you can force it to play a harmonic, or overtone, where it vibrates in two equal halves, with three stationary points, one at each end, and the middle. (In a brass instrument it is the air column that it divided into sections, but the overtones are pretty much the same)

The harmonic series progresses as you place your finger dividing the string into smaller sections, 1/2 a string will sound an octave above open, 1/3 a string will sound a perfect 12th and have 4 stationary points, 1/4 2 octaves with 5 stationary points, 1/5 2 octaves and a major 3rd with six stationary points etc. All of these harmonics sound at varying degrees when you play a note, playing a harmonic causes only that harmonic and its multiples to sound, so they have a "thinner" sound than ordinary notes.

Some reasons behind why the notes start to sound fuzzy -

when the wavelength becomes a very small percentage of the string, the antinodes (the stationary points on the string) become unstable, as the very small length of string your finger is seperating is a very high overtone, and probably very close in ratio to others. Fir example, if you divide a string into 20 parts, the length os very similar to 19 or 21 parts so these can sound as well, causing a distortion of sound.

When the vibrating length is very small the width of the sting comes into play, it cannot be considered a 1-dimensional line, and takes on the properties of a vibrating bar, which has much more complicated acoustics and will not produce clear overtones.

If you are not using high quality strings they may be of non-uniform density or diameter, a harmonic cannot sound unless all vibrating parts of the string have a roughly equal acoustic characteristic.

I'm not entirely sure why the quality of the instrument makes a difference, though it obviously does! can anyone explain?

Wood varies in acoustical properties too. A narrow grain means the wood can flex a lot more and thereforne the resonance will be better. Very wide grained wood is generally of lower acoustical quality. Stradivari et al of the same era, was lucky in the wood he chose. Maple that had grown slowly due to a few hundred years of rather cold weather, had kept the growth rings narrow - ideal acoustic wood.

Additionally, the shape of the belly and back (the curvature) and the thickness of the plates as well. If the plates are thick the wood cannot vibrate properly, thinner plates and they will ring like a bell. Dramatically uneven thickness will also make a difference and the wood also needs to be dried and left to age naturally. Many cheap(er) commercially or factory made instruments have had the wood dried artificially and the plates are often cut by machine then heated and bent over a mold, rather than carved out from a block.

Varnish quality. Generally speaking, a good oil varnish is softer and therefore flexes better with good acoustic wood. It will induce a far warmer sound and softer edge to the tone. Spirit varnish, traditionally used by the French Mirecourt makers of the late 19th and early 20th century, is harder in texture and therefore flexes a lot less. French violins tend to be a little bit nasal in tone, which is partly attributed to the harder varnish restricting the movement of the plates. Low quality spirit varnish (or even acrylic varnish, a variation on Ronseal!) tends to be used on cheaper student violins, because it dries a lot quicker and its hardness makes it less prone to damage through knocks or rubbing. Acrylic varnish gives an instrument a 'boxy' sound, especially if the plates are thick as well.

A good quality and properly fitted bridge. The sound post also needs to be postioned in an optimal place, as this also attributes to the tonal and dynamic characteristics of an instrument. Moving it even by a millimetre can alter the response of the instrument entirely, or just one particular string.

All in all a high quality individually crafted violin made by an experienced luthier, will have all the makings of a good quality tone, even if that tone has to develop while the instrument is played in. Mass produced workshop instruments won't, because they need fast output and this comes at a cost in tonal quality. However, how many players of the latter are likely to be using 7th position on the G string?

It's so interesting reading AmandaL's post about violins! I didn't know there was so much to the art of violin making. Thanks for sharing that with us.

Overheard in a university orchestra rehearsal, during one of the Dvorak Slavonic Dances:

Conductor: "First violins, we'll just go from that entry on your top...er....er......er......."

voice from the back desk: "It's all right, we don't know what it is either!"

(it was a top E, 6 ledger lines)

Shostakovich 5 has a completely exposed and unprepared entry for the firsts on the F a note above that, while Copeland's Billy the Kid asks for octave doubling of a high A, which gets you to 8 ledger lines. I played it just for swank but don't think I contributed very much!!!

Oooh, I've found a top G

I don't play violin (nor am I going ot read the rest of the post because I'm rather busy) but I've heard composers usually stick to violinist being able to play at least one octave on each string while staying in tune. Great violinist can do better of course, but for your normal city orchestra or something thats the rule I'd go with.

Dvorak is quite hard. In my orchestra people are still struggling with the shifts which my teacher showed me to do. We are doing the Slavonic dance 5. I really do not like it either.

The highest note I have ever played: the G in 6th position on E.
I could go higher but never had a need to.

Then you haven't played enough Dvorak yet!

Based on the 5th slavonic dance I do not want any more dvorak. Don't like it at all but will go along with it until my summer concert and then probably set fire to the music(don't worry its just a photocopy).

Aw, I'm sorry you don't like Dvorak -- I really enjoy him and find him good fun to play though sometimes quite hard in places. Over the years I have played all the slavonic dances (including in the original piano duet version), several of the overtures and a good number of the symphonies.

Also his music always goes down well with audiences, a serious consideration for amateur orchestras with no outside funding.

but - but - the 5th SD is lovely!
I prefer the 7th though...