The scale requirements for all AB bowed string candidates are under review for a very probable revamp in the new syllabus, which will come out in late 2009.

This comes on good authority from a discussion I had yesterday with cellist William Bruce, who is one of the major inputs for the cello syllabus lists.

He agreed that TG have got it sorted when it comes to scale requirements that make sense, rather than a somewhat random jumble of different major/minor keys - and often too many scales at that - currently set in the AB syllabus.

Wow, a change would be brilliant! I don't have a single student who relishes the scales, especially from Grade 3 upwards - there are just too many and they tend to feel utterly bamboozled by them. The dominant seventh scales I particularly feel are an unnecessary addition at the lower grades, and I can't quite see the point of them. Yes, dominant arpeggios occur in repertoire from time to time but is that really a good reason to add them to the already burgeoning scale load?

Great news! I did compare the AB scales to TG for grade 4, but there wasn't much difference between the two examining boards. I found the leap from 3 to 4 was huge, but 4 to 5 looks easy by comparison.

That is good news. Am not optimistic that fewer scales will enthuse students to practice them more. What is it with string studnets and scales?

Scales on a string instrument are so easy to learn. In the most simplistic form, for exam purposes, just learn them using a standard pattern of fingering and yet, the majority of my students just don't, or can't, seem to get this basic idea into their head. It drives me nuts.

I think the idea of the revamp though, is to structure scale requirements more around note (key) centres, similar to the way TG do theirs.

I think the problem with string players and scales is when the student can't hear the series of intervals in their head. Once they know exactly what all the scale types are meant to sound like, and can reproduce them with their voice to order, the problem is drasticallty reduced. I don't think learning via finger patterns is a secure way to learn scales because you only need to forget one finger pattern and you're lost! It's much harder - or darn near impossible - to forget the sound of a scale type, in the same way it's hard to forget a simple tune once learnt.

With one particular pupil who said she hated scales, I've taught her to sing a major scale in sol-fa: doh, re mi etc. She does this no problem - her love for The Sound of Music probably helps here! So then I told her: every scale is just doh re mi etc but starting on a different note with each scale. She's aged 9 and between Grade 1 and 2 level but once she'd grasped this, I sounded out the note Ab and told her to sing a scale in solf-fa starting there. She managed it just fine. I then asked her to try playing the same scale starting on a low 1st finger on the G string. To my delight she managed it first go, playing a low first finger when she reached the second Ab - a note she'd never actually played before. And the scale of Ab doesn't appear till Grade 4, so she's now thrilled to bits that on principal she can now work out any major scale in first position.

So what I'm trying to say is that for string players scales need to be taught aurally otherwise there'll always be incomprehension and silly mistakes, like going too far or forgetting a flattened fourth finger etc etc. I've tried teaching them the finger pattern way and found it not to be really secure. And it doesn't really help them to internalise the sound of the scales and relationships of the intervals within them.

In other words, with stringed instruments you don't have the visual aspect to help you - you only have remembered finger patterns and/or remembered intervals. I think using your ear is the best guide because even if you use the wrong finger you're still going to hit the right note!

A lot of them can't sing in tune (lack of vocal chord control). Mind you, I can't shout too much, as I don't always have the most controllable singing voice in the world either, but that's never stopped me form being able to play scales on the violin in tune.

I certainly learnt scales through finger patterns and it never gave me any problems. I'm sure the sol-fa systems (and others) are very useful, but I'm not into any prescibed 'teaching system' or method.

The odd thing is, it always seems to be the profficient pianists - those who took up playing the piano long before taking up the violin - who have the most problems with intonation. I've never played the piano in my life - not properly anyway and I always hear the piano as being out of tune with everything else (and itself) anyway.

Not being able to sing in tune can be for two reasons: not knowing in one's head how it's meant to sound, and not having vocal control despite being able to hear the notes correctly in one's head. If you can't sing in tune but can play the violin in tune I can assure you that you can hear the notes correctly in your head!

Some violin students can't sing in tune because they can't hear when a note is in or out of tune and these people do have a problem; my old violin teacher refused to teach any child who couldn't sing in tune and I believe she had sound reasons. I'm less discriminating in the students I take on, because apart from anything else I'm not married to a private doctor! But if I had the choice I might see it differently and advise some students to take up piano instead or someother instrument with fixed notes.

You say you learnt scales through finger patterns and they never gave you any problems; as a successful violinist and someone who I have no doubt plays beautifully in tune, I also have no doubt that you can hear in your head how the notes are meant to sound, so you would have been (unconsciously, probably) using that facility to guide you as well as the finger patterns. But if you only have the finger patterns and have no real 'internal help', then finger patterns can be a hazardous method of learning scales.

For example, suppose you learn this finger pattern for the scale of B:

2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 etc

When it comes to Bb and you use the same finger pattern, you still have to be aware that when you reach the D string, your 1st finger has to go into the lower position. No problem if you can hear the intervals in your head, but if you can't then the chances are that you'll forget. So you learn them from notation, but when it comes to the exam you still have to know them all by heart - and I think this is a big part of the reason so many students freak out at the numbers of scales to be learnt: so much to be learnt and all by heart! Whereas if they could hear them in their head, they'd only have to learn basic scale patterns - right up to Grade 8

the major scale
the major arpeggio
the harmonic minor scale
the melodic minor scale
the minor arpeggio
the dominant seventh arpeggio
the chromatic scale
the diminished arpeggio

Eight basic formations and that's it - no other variations.

If you can give them a starting note and tell them to sing or hear in their head any of these in any key, then the problem is infinitessimally smaller than the mountain of having to learn 96 (or whatever the number is) seemingly different scales and arpeggios.

I'm not saying there's a best method - just trying to understand why some people find scales so hard and find a solution to the problem.

So here's the big problem - a student who can't sing in tune (or hear the notes in their head) to save their life but desperately wants to play the violin and needs to pass grades to get to where they want to get to. What to do? Finger patterns that can so easily go wrong because they forget to play Eb instead of E natural?

I think you have to spend extra time teaching them to sing - or hum - in tune. Just a few notes each lesson - it doesn't need to take vast amounts of time, but the dividends can be enormous. I'm currently trying to do this with all my students who struggle to play or hear correct notes and they are all slowly improving.

I think what we need to remember is that only in extremely rare cases are children born with a faulty musical ear; recent research has shown that we are nearly all born with the ability to hear the vibrations that tell you whether notes are in tune or not or in tune in relation to each other. Musical parents who encourage you to sing from a young age are enormously helpful in securing this ability; parents who never sing with their children or sing out of tune with them are unhelpful! Schools can also be very helpful - or do little to help. Recently far too many schools have been doing far too little to help, because of the literacy and numeracy hours etc or whatever other excuses they come up with.

So you have a 'tone challenged' child with a parent who can't or won't sing and a school that doesn't encourage singing. What to do if you want them to play the violin in tune? Or play scales well? Stickers and remembered finger patterns? Or some ear training as you go along?

PS I agree with you about pianos - horrendously out of tune - all of 'em. I'm currently teaching an adult who plays piano very well but can she hear when she's playing out of tune? Not always.

Perhaps the way a person learns, in general, may also have an influence on how they learn scales. Son no 2 (10) would be in full agreement with Amanda over finger patterns. He knows what the scales sound like and can use finger patterns to play scales in any position on his viola. He has a very logical brain and can make the connections. He also recently, when he'd hurt his first finger, managed to finger some violin duets avoiding the first finger and play them on his viola with his cousin. To him it was like working out a musical puzzle.
His elder brother struggled to see the connections between different scales and fingering patterens for a long time. He just went by the sound. He is very disorganised and logic doesn't figure too highly in his learning.

Finger patterns are fine and very useful - as long as you know in your head what the scales are meant to sound like. If you don't, you're in trouble.

You say yourself that son no 2 knows what the scales sound like. You also say your other son struggled with the finger patterns but went by the sound. So both your sons are using their ears - it's just that one of them uses finger patterns as well.

But the point I was trying to make was: what do you do with the students who can't go by the sound, because they just can't hear when it's right or wrong? Finger patterns will tell which finger to use and when, but they won't tell you exactly where to put your finger!

Can the students tell if someone else plays out of tune? My friend has a pupil who can't tell if he's playing in tune or not but can tell if she deliberatly plays out of tune.

Both of my two were lucky in that their 1st teachers were heavily influenced by Kodaly and included a lot of singing activities in their teaching. When they first started they had to sing everything before they played it which I'm sure helped.

Let me phrase this carefully. Supposing (purely hypothetically) that a teacher felt (for some obviously absurd reason) that the TG syllabus was better, is there any reason why they might choose to use the AB syllabus anyway?

(I wondered from the title of this thread what was happening about the scale of A flat.)

I noticed when I started out with the violin (as an experienced musician but beginner violinist) that I learned the first two scales, Gmaj and Amaj, by finger pattern because I didn't know where the notes related to finger spacing on the violin fingerboard.

But very quickly my 'ear' kicked in and because I already knew the semitone/tone intervals my fingers started falling into the correct place automatically.

This didn't really help me place the notes I was reading with where my fingers were landing (although it was useful for playing 'by ear') so I started to picture each note on the stave as I played it.

With new scales this can be a lengthy process as I work out sharps and flats as I go along but it now means that if I read a note in first or third position my finger finds it quickly on the fingerboard (coupled with being able to 'hear' the interval if there is an accidental). Once I do this the scale is secure and any repeptition is an exercise in accurate intonation rather than note-finding. I'm lucky that I have the full range of scales (all minors, dim, dom etc) secure in my head so fingers find the places automatically now. I've not played any scales in second position yet but I'm starting to use second position myself as logic demands - it's like playing with a puzzle to choose the appropriate fingering.

Despite being a teacher previously I have no idea how I would approach teaching violin scales to a beginner but I'll never be in that position (I have no intention of ever teaching violin) so it doesn't matter. I've just worked out a system that suits me and my knowledge levels.

p.s. back on topic - I'm only using the AB syllabus for continuity and don't have any reason to look at the alternatives just yet. But I am pleased to hear the AB are reviewing their scale requirements - hopefully they'll have a successful and sensible outcome.

Thanks for this info Amanda. As I am now in the hiatus between Grade 5 and 6 and not yet started looking at Grade 6 stuff, just enjoying playing for the moment, it's good to have advance warning.

Of course this won't stop me from practising scales will it

One of my worst offenders when it comes to scales, knows perfecty well when he's playing out of tune. He just doesn't correct his finger position quick enough and just sails merrily on regardless.

Like beating your head on the wall, you're really glad when it stops.

This is exactly what I'm advocating.

I would dispute that scales on cello (don't know about other stringed instruments) are easy to learn. I have found them really difficult as the so called "standard" pattern of fingering isn't standard at all once you are past the first "easy" ones (and I know exactly what the scales should sound like in my head). It's not only difficult to remember the variations in finger patterns, it's also diffficult to physically get your hands round them if you have small hands. This applies even more to arpeggios and the slurred bowing is even more difficult.



Not odd at all - we pianists don't have to listen properly to a note as we expect that the piano tuner will have done the job for us. It's taken me several years to be absolutely sure that I'm in tune on the cello. You developed the ability to pitch properly first, Amanda, so you can hear when the piano is out of tune.

Quite right, and this is probably the reason why piano teachers are far less likely to see the relevance of aural tests than string teachers. If I had a pupil who struggled with aural tests (especially test B) it would follow on that they wouldn't be very good at playing the violin in tune! I have to give my students aural training if they need it otherwise they'd be better off switching to another instrument, frankly.

QUOTE(AmandaL @ Apr 21 2008, 07:32 PM)

The scale requirements for all AB bowed string candidates are under review for a very probable revamp in the new syllabus, which will come out in late 2009.



Hi AmandaL,
Is this true of ALL string instruments?
The Sylabus pages say the cello and double-bass will run out on 2009, the viola does not have an end date. But the violin shows running from 2008-2011.

Do you think that the list of required scales will change for violin before 2011 ? If so, I hope they dont change the tunes as well.

The cello scales will change for certain in 2009. The pieces set for violin et al. will remain in force, but they may still update the scale requirements before 2011.

I guess the time we will know for definite will be an announcement on the AB website, or when the new syllabus is printed for 2010 (ie. around August/ September of next year).