I'm starting to get comfortable with my grade 8 stuff, well in advance of the exam in June/July. It still needs a fair bit of polishing for a good mark and the scales & arpeggios still need work but I have no doubt I'll get there and in plenty of time. So, I'm beginning to look around, wondering where to go afterwards, what repertoire and technical development will be good before starting on Dip work. I'm sure my teacher will have a major input into this, but it got me thinking about the Chopin Etudes (which are still beyond me, but then they always will be unless I start sometime, and yes, I know they are LRSM listed):

Where do you start with these? Do you start with Op 10 no.1 and work your way through? Seems unlikely, since, by general agreement, Op 10 no. 1 appears to be one of the hardest. Do you start with one you happen to like? Or one that is intended to help your most obvious specific technical deficiency (whatever that may be)? Or is there some recommended order? If so what?

Just wondered!

My favourite is the one in E Major. Gets a bit difficult in the chromaticky bit though.
The main tune was used in a film yers and years ago, cant remember which film though.

Op. 25 no. 1 would be a good start....I'm preparing for the Russian syllabus and the etude is beyond grade 8 ABRSM but not too difficult.

Good luck!

I would start with op.10 no.6, but thats just because thats the one i like best, so thats not a very good reason.

You learn whichever your teacher decides will help you most!

Mine gave me Op 10 No 7 a few weeks ago (a cure for stiff wrists) and as soon and as soon as that was beginning to sound reasonable decided that the next would be Op 25 No 4 (practice in controlled release of some notes while continuing hold others - also one of the reasons for working on Bach Fugues). As I get through more of them I am realizing that Op 10 No 1 is indeed amongst the 3 or 4 most difficult.

op.10 no. 4 in A-flat is my favourite. no. 5 of the same opus is also pretty showy.

I'd start with the one which you'd like to play the most, none of them are easy...and the ones that may appear to be less difficult will still pose significant challenges. Unfortunately, though i recognise a key signature i don't know many of their names, down to a derisory knowledge of scales and arps. So i'll stick with numbers, the 2nd from Op 10 is not quite as hard as it sounds. The most famous are the 3rd and 12th from the Opus 10, both are among the six i'm trying to learn. I'm sure most of you already know this but No3 is nicknamed Tristesse, and the main melody is also a famous song 'How Deep is the Night. The midsection of the piece is not easy, and i'd definitely recommend you spend some time writing out fingerings, because i've found that one slip in this department and the house of cards will collapse. The ''Revoulutionary'' No12 is a fantastic study for the Left Hand, and though i've memorised it, playing the piece through causes my Left forearm to ache more than any other piece, this is because the tendons in your fingers have their points of origin in the arms, and mine are probably just not as in good nick as they should be for this tour de force. However i would say that this is not difficult to memorise, and with all the blood and thunder going on you don't want to be looking at the page let alone turning them. If you have reasonably large hands, I'd say No9 is one of the less difficult ones, as well as The 'Aeolian Harp' No1 from the 2nd set. The sixth from Opus 10 is a slow and haunting piece, and one which should be learned without a pedal. The Peters edition has Senza pedal for most of it, but other editions indicate pedalling, either way learning without the pedal is beneficial as this is a study in holding notes. My personal goal concerning the etudes is to learn ten of them , that's still some way of, but i've found that even trudging through them at a snails pace has taught me a great deal and made other pieces easier to learn, gradually the tempo just gets there, but peseverance with these studies is very rewarding.

I have given this a lot of thought and my conclusions are

1. That they cannot be ranked in an objective "order of difficulty", as different pianists find different things difficult. A personal example .. Op 25 No 2 is generally rated as one of the easier etudes, but I do not find it easy at all, in fact I find it much tougher than Op 10 Nos 1, 2, 4, 7, yet it is "supposed" to be the other way around.

2. As any ambitious pianist will eventually learn all 24 it does not really matter where you start

6 down 18 to go!

Good advice, I would expect no less! Because I like it (who doesn't - but then I like them all!) I've started in a low grade sort of way on Op 10 no 3: Broken it down into at least 12 segments and rated them according to difficulty - starting work on the hardest bit and the 1st bit first. Even the easist bit has it's hard moments!

Yes, which really is quite important. There is questionable value in doing a study that is many leagues beyond ones capabilities - don't get caught up in the æsthetics. With studies, one should choose a piece that is attainable if one was to just work on a certain area of technique. That way, one can focus on the area of technique and develop a useful, transferable skill; rather than fighting to stay afloat in a difficult piece.

Your remark that 'they always will be [beyond me] unless I start sometime' is right in one sense, in that it is tautologous: not being able to play a piece is a corollary of not having tried. However, it does not mean that now is the time to start learning them: your time would be better spent working on other studies to bring the Chopin études nearer to your abilities. There are plenty out there to choose from.

Agreed, and [good] point taken: However, as you point out etudes are about fixing gaps in technique. I think I've found at least one which I can almost play - all except one element. Since there is that one tricky (to me) element in the study I think it is worth me learning, though it may be some time before I can play it to concert standard. It's the old question of what makes it LRSM standard, to which the answer is probably a combination of polish and technical difficulty, not just technical difficulty alone.

I think that what I'm saying here is that I agree with you - "many leagues beyond ones capabilities" is a bad idea: Just beyond the envelope is what I'm aiming for.

Okay, I think I follow your post (and past ones in this thread). Your segmentation an étude will render the task somewhat more productive in any case if you focus on a segment which is technique + something you can manage. And yes, if you've heard Ashkenazy's recording's of the Chopin, he plays them like romantic piano pieces, making the technique sound effortless. Git.

Hope no one minds me resurrecting an old thread. I was just wondering how you're getting on with OP 10, no 3, Robodoc? Having never tackled any Chopin etude myself before - having been put off by all the declarations of impossibleness - I've decided that it's time I did, and I'm plonking for this one. (Thus far I've played through once as far as page 3...things can only get better... )

Best of luck with the Grade 8, by the way! Have you done it yet?

I've just started Chopin's revolutionary etude op. 10 no.12 and I haven't even sat grade 6 or 7 (but did the prep) but the left hand seems to have taken to it nicely and the right hands not too far off.

Op. 25, no.1 is beautiful and very satisfying to play; a number of years ago it was LTCL Level, but I notice it is now in the supplementary piano repertoire list for ATCL. (But then from what I am hearing, Trinity seems to be going a bit wacko these days! ) anyway, I'd better be off before I provoke a full-scale argument!

Actually it sounded to me like he was struggling with Op 10 No 1, but then his Scriabin playing is wonderful and his recording of Mozart K576 is the best I've heard ...

OK - confession time.
I'm getting along pretty well with Op 10 no 3, but keep deciding that it's time for a cuppa tea/emptying the dishwasher/etc every time I get as far as the con bravura bit - with all those leger lines - and haven't tackled this section at all yet. When I was learning the notes in the Berceuse I wondered to myself if I should think about writing in some leger line letter names in the early stages, but never actually did (being of high moral calibre...), and it did come together eventually, but I'm seriously considering cheating with this one to see if it might speed things up a little. (Don't tell my pupils...) The copy I have is very crushed up and my eyes go funny just looking at all those lines. There isn't as much 'shape' to the written music here as there was in the Berceuse, so reading purely by interval is more difficult.

Has anybody else ever thought about doing this?

In general, if there are lots of ledger lines, I have no qualms about pencilling in the letter names of the notes above or beside the actual notes. I erase them when the piece has been well learned. Who cares what people think? The whole point is to play the piece properly. Whatever helps.

As for the con Bravura in Chopin Op. 10 No. 3, I can't think of any alternative but to memorize it. It is much too difficult to look at score AND find the notes, AND use the right fingers, AND keep the tempo, AND phrase it well. In general, memorization seems to be the way to go with these Etudes. (In fact I find that I repeat them so many times that I can't help but memorize them, and could not choose not to).



p.s. It is pouring with rain, which is why I am still writing posts on this forum instead of practicing. I'll make a dash for it when there is a break.

I had a nasty feeling that somebody was going to say that.