Good day everyone....

My first, and regrettably lengthy post: once again it's the discussion of the digital keyboard vs. the real piano.

At the moment and for the last ten months I've been using a weighted-key Yamaha digital piano to work out on. Twenty years ago I was a professional pianist, life then did it's get-in-the-way thing, but now I have the time to return to my first love (hooray!)

I think it is well-nigh time to get a grand, and I thought it might be interesting to share the reasoning behind the decision. Whereas the Yamaha is OK for scales, most arpeggios, and a few other technical workouts, I've begun to suspect it's now doing as much harm as good to my playing.
Obviously, in areas such as sustain and colour, no digital keyboard can deliver the breadth of expression of a tuned and regulated grand. BUT, and here's my theory, there is a more insidious problem, and that's to do with playing weight.
My relatively precise measurements indicate a playing weight of around 65 grams at the edge of the white keys: well and good, perhaps a little heavy, but not a terrible thing. The black keys have a playing weight at their edge of about 80-85 grams. As one gets closer to the fall-board, the black keys can take up to another 60 grams to produce a tone.
This inequality is much much more than I remember from the grands of yore that I remember playing. Certain Chopin studies (eg Op. 25 No. 8 in D flat) become very peculiar exercises as I grapple with key inequalities.....I appreciate that the grand piano action, consisting of levers, pivots etc, as it does, will also display differing key weights, but I'm imagining to a much lesser degree.

As I live very far away from any grand pianos I haven't been able to put the theory to the test, but soon that will be rectified. My question is basic: am I completely wrong in my theorising? I'll find out soon enough but I'd hugely appreciate anyone's experiences with this issue. I've made a few long distance phone calls to piano stores but unfortunately it wasn't very productive.

Thanks in advance for your input!

This seemed interesting so I did some rough and ready measurements on a Yamaha C2 Grand. I am afraid the preliminary results do not support your hypothesis.

I depressed a Black key and then placed a stack of Euro coins on it to keep it depressed. I the removed coins one by one until the weight was insufficent to keep the key down. In this way I determined the minimum weight to keep the key depressed. I did this at the front edge of the key and towards the sound board.

At the front edge a stack of 7 1-Euro coins was just suficient to prevent the key from rising. Near the back of the key 13 1-Euro coins were insufficient (that was all I had - but it was nowhere near enough weight). This seems pretty similar to your results for the digital. All I need to do now is weigh a 1-Euro coin and go back with a bigger stack of them.

I couldn't get figures for the white keys as the rear of a white key is too narrow.

I've always had a theory, and I certainly haven't been as scientific about it as madTom, that digital pianos don't produce as much finger muscle tone as acoustic piano's. Of the students that I have that use digital piano, they find my normal piano much harder to play.


To be fair, I would imagine most of them are playing on the cheaper digital models and they, although weighted, don't require nearly as much effort to depress them. I also find that even though the keys are full size, there is a difference in the shape of the black keys, that also seems to effect the movement of some players.

I think it is around about grade 5/6 that most students really start noticing the difference and preferring the regular piano, and as an advanced pianist you are noticing differences that would very rarely come to notice.

I would be interested on David Bartons opinion on this as I believe he uses a very nice, good quality digital piano (far better than my acoustic one), and my feelings are all based on gut and how I have noticed students reacting to my piano compared with their own, with no scientific base at all.

I do my day time practice on a piano and evening on a yamaha keyboard (and it is a good one). As I said in another post I have found that I am attacking the keys on the keyboard much too heavily - and actually feel far more tired after playing the keyboard than the piano. Somehow the piano seems to absorb my weight a lot better and I do have a more relaxed technique on it. So I can see your point nspei. I suppose it is what you get used to. I wish their was a proper book or study out there on this issue. I sometimes read piano books talk about keyboards in a slightly disparaging way but there is no proper explanation of how you should adapt your technique when going from one to the other.

If im thinking what you are, its basic physics really that the closer you push to the moment of a level (the pivot point) the harder you will have to push, a piano key is just basically a level wheather it be black or white, so this would affect any piano, not just a digital one.
(that wasn't meant to patrionise by the way)

Thank you for all your thoughtful replies!

I'm a little surprised by mad Tom's findings, but given the nature of levers , maybe I shouldn't be.....(I'm thinking of hello_cello's observation)

But, something is nagging me about the effort that seems to come with playing the digital keyboard for extended periods of time. Maybe I'm up a tree with my key weight idea - that's quite possible!
What kate bush fan writes is so interesting, as it mirrors what I think I'm experiencing: there might just be a different required technical approach to the weighted digital keyboard; something that's not so obvious at first sight.

I'm off on a couple of weeks for a Grand Tour of pianos for sale across the country (Canada). No doubt I'm going to learn something! (maybe practise more?)

Just as a postscript....I haven't dared to take apart the digital, although my curiosity will get the better of me one day. I wonder what the lever mechanism is; are springs involved?

The more you play the more differences in feel and sound you find between digitals and acoustics. The difference that bothers me the most is the lack of a clear catch point on a digital.

On an acoustic the key goes down a little way, then you feel a resistance, but it does not feel like simple extra pressure, you can actually sense the way that the escapement has engaged, then a little more effort and the hammer flies towards the string with a controllable speed.

This is lacking on my Yamaha P80 digital. I seem to remember that the Fatar Studiologic I used to have several years ago was more piano-like in its action, and it may have been providing this precise tactile feedback - but the memmory is vague.

You are right that some pieces - and Chopin Etudes in particular - feel quite wrong and are difficult to control on a digital. And not just because the conventional stand is not solid enough.

I need to replace my old upright, and am thinking of a Yamaha grand with Silent System - which will obviously have exactly the same physical feel in digital as in acoustic mode. Any differences in feel will be imagined as a result of any differences/deficiencies in the generated sound, and in its synchronisation with the key and pedal actions.

(Trouble is they are rare second hand, and the price of a new one is most of the cost of a serviceable second hand Steinway, Bluthner, or Bosendorfer).



I had to open up my P80 because a key was intermittently jamming. There are a lot of screws, but the case comes apart and goes back together quite easily. There are leaf springs on each key, but you can see the mechanism and how it works without dismantling any individual notes. What you do have to be careful of is not to damage the cables, and as they will almost certainly be dislodged when you open the case it can be a bit fiddly to get them back in the right place and avoid trapping them when you put it back together. Also I seem to remember that there were two different types/size of screw, so it is sensible to make a note of which screw goes where (or perhaps I am getting confused with a notebook PC - I take lots of things to pieces!)

The jammed key turned out to be caused by a 2p coin belonging to the previous owner!

Mad Tom,

That's a fascinating point (the catch point observation). I hadn't really investigated this as a cause of my difficulties, real or imagined, but I'm going to dwell on this - very thought-provoking!

And I wish you the best luck in finding another piano - yes, they're so darned expensive and I wish it wasn't so. I might as well wish for a few extra fingers......


Best regards

Nick

Have you tried out a silent piano Mad Tom? I was told by a dealer once that the action felt different and some people didn't like it - but then I have never actually tried one out - perhaps he was just trying to sell me something else.

No I haven't tried one, but it is hard to imagine how the action could be different in the Yamaha system, as it is not changed - at least if their web site and catalogues are to be believed. A bar is put in place to catch the hammers before they hit the strings, and reflective spots are put on the keys to allow lasers to track their velocity. There are no exta wires, or switches, or springs, or springs or anything affecting the keyboard.

(This is not like Schimmel's old mechanism of moving the action closer and putting a sheet of felt between the hammers and strings. That feels truly awful.)

Still - there may be a difference. You never know till you've tried.

Yes it was about the bar I think - not so much depth to the keys or something. If you do try one let us know what it is like...

i was in millers in cambridge playing a silent piano and i couldnt really feel any difference.
I guess it depends what model, and your current piano.

To me the problem is that you can be tense or tentative playing a digital and you get the same sound out of it regardless. meanwhile on my elderly baby grand if I'm tense i get a strangled kind of sound - hard to describe...I think what's the matter with the piano and it's me!! To get a good sound I *have* to use the weighted arm/free fall method and a particular hand action my teacher taught me. The baby's keys are indeed heavier but there is clearly more to the physics than that, I think the baby has what they call a rolling action which has to be completely different to a simple electric contact being made to activate an electric sound regardless of how they weight the keys.

There's no question that playing on a digital means I lose the good action I need for the other.

I have been accompanying my daughter in her trombone lessons on a clavinova. This is the first time I have every played anything other than an acoustic piano and I hate it. The keys don't react in the same way at all, I can't do any gradual dynamics on it and if I move my hands in slightly to play black notes the white notes need to be pressed considerably harder or they don't sound at all. Also the pedal seems to have some sort of delayed effect.

My daughter keeps missing her entries (which she has no trouble with at home) because (as she said to her teacher) "it just doesn't sound the same."

Kerioboe,

I can understand this - but I do wish I could define exactly what the difficulty consists of! The Clavinova is so very close to the real thing in so many ways but.......
In some ways, when you play a digital keyboard (I mean a good one) it rather feels like you must become an extension of that keyboard to play successfully: the instrument demands it. But when you pay a good "real" piano, the piano becomes an extension of you. All very odd, and not terribly satisfying.

Clavinovas seem to vary enormously.

I have both a clav (not very new!) and a modern German upright about two years old. I use both regularly and I value both. My clav takes rough and tumble from my younger pupils and has done so for about 10 years.

I have known other clavs that are not particularly nice to play, and yet my own one seems to me the best of any digital piano (of any make) I've tried.

In some ways, when you play a digital keyboard (I mean a good one) it rather feels like you must become an extension of that keyboard to play successfully: the instrument demands it. But when you pay a good "real" piano, the piano becomes an extension of you.

yes - I think that's quite a thought.

When I was looking for a new piano a couple of years back, I was interested to find that the Yamahas I played felt very much like playing my clav. Obviously can't have been exactly the same, so maybe psychological?? whatever, I couldn't get rid of the feeling.

I think the difference is the distance from the hammers ( at rest) to the strings is greater in the Yamahas fitted with the silent system, than the normal ones which makes the action slightly heavier (apparently!)

Paul

Yes. The so-called let-off is much greater. Depending on the individual Silent Piano and how it is regulated this could not only be noticeable to the pianist, but also give problems with control or playing piannissimo. Having said this, however, everyone I have spoken to who owns a Yamaha Silent Piano is very pleased with them. There is something very attractive about being able to play large FF works on your own instrument at 2 am in a city apartment without bothering family and neighbors

My personal preference is to have an acoustic grand and a separate digital instrument next to it for Silent Play. In May, Yamaha will come out with their next generation Clavinova 300 series, Kawai has their CA series and Roland currently has some very pleasant to play digitals including the HP207 as a traditional styled piano, the FP-7 stage piano and the RD-700GX advanced stage piano and controller. Many of these new instruments come with exceptionally advanced sampling technologies, realistic keyboard action including sometimes wooden keys, ivory feel keys, escapement feature to emulate the feel of a grand piano, etc. These capable, never-need-tuning instruments are single-handedly destroying the market for new acoustic uprights in many markets around the world.

For details on Yamaha Silent Let-off, see: http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech/199...ary/012055.html
related discusssion: http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ulti...ic/1/16552.html

These capable, never-need-tuning instruments are single-handedly destroying the market for new acoustic uprights in many markets around the world.

It is perhaps worth bearing in mind that there are still things that can go wrong with a digital instrument.

I have been relatively fortunate with mine, but the manufacturers are changing various things all the time (of course - it's called continuous improvement) - so spare components are kept for a limited time. Last time I checked Yamaha undertook to keep spares for only three years - does anyone know if this is still the case?

It is possible therefore to be the owner of a relatively new instrument with a faulty component which can't be replaced. Put this side by side with an acoustic which, with a little care, will last a lifetime.

I've got an acoustic Kawai K6 and a Roland FP-4 which is the little brother of the FP-7 you mentioned.

There's just no comparison between them. I use the Roland for silent practice at night - that is all. It's not that it's a bad instrument, for it's price I think it's a really good digital, but there's so much missing with it. It's like a different animal to the K6.

One of the most obvious things I've noticed is that you don't get that effect on the digital that you get on an acoustic when you work your way up a scalic passage past the point where the strings are no longer damped and they sing out forever. I don't get this effect at all on the digital. Also, those points on keyboard where the strings change from 3 strings per note to 2 and then to 1 - I don't get the feeling of that on my digital either. I find this particular point a bit confusing as it's supposed to be a sampled grand piano. I wonder if the engineers make tweeks to each pitch on the digital to iron out these effects. If they do, I think it's a shame - it's one of the things that makes a an acoustic feel so alive.

Rebecca

Let's say, for example, that you spend £1000 on a decent digital. I would suspect that it will last, on average, about 10 years: sometimes more, sometimes less, but on average about 10. By the time it goes wrong spares are unobtainable so your only choice is to buy another. Ignoring inflation, that means £100 per year to own a digital.

Compare that with a good upright acoustic, say £7000, which will last at least 50 years, so works out at £35 per year, plus tuning every once in a while, say annually on average at say £65 a time, for a total of about £100 per year to own an acoustic upright.

Of course the figures are deliberately chosen to make the figures match, but they are not unrealistic (and I suspect a £7000 upright, which is near the top of the range for Yamaha, for example, will be a much better instrument than a £1000 digital). The point is that the relatively low initial cost of digital equipment can be misleading and should be offset against it's lack of durability in the long term.

Of course, once you get into the world of grands the costs escalate, but good instruments always cost more! At least good pianists aren't expected to fork out in excess of £1 million for a decent instrument!! stradivarius sold at auction

Wouldn't be any good in my hands, even if I could afford to buy it!

I used a really good weighted Roland digital piano up to grade 4 but found that I couldn't get the expression in one of the pieces I'd chosen. I went out and purchased a second hand Yamaha U1 (UX1 model to be precise) - and haven't looked back since. The Roland is now being housed by one of my neighbours in case I ever fancy a tinkle around with its multitude of gadgets!

It's a sound investment, in my opinion, to get a good quality acoustic piano, but if finances are limited, a good quality digital beats a bad quality acoustic any day.

I had a lovely afternoon at Forsyths in Manchester once trying out a Yamaha Disklavier Grand. The salesman told me that there should be no difference between the A1 (I think that was the model, anyway) and this piano because they are exactly the same, except the digital system is added to the piano after it's been made, thus rendering a 2-in-1 instrument.

To be honest, I found the instrument divine. The control that the computer had over the keys when it played back what I recorded was stunning and you could even turn the volume up and down. I couldn't fault it. Needless to say, I wanted one and it took me a while to leave the shop. Luckily, the salesman was bored and was more than happy to accomodate!

I agree. Digitals, just like PCs and other electronics are disposable products which also are being improved at such a rate that within 3-4 years one is tempted to replace even perfectly working models.

There are also a lot of poor quality acoustic uprights out there that may last a lifetime but certainly aren't a pleasure to play for a lifetime.



I agree. Nothing compares to the feeling of playing a quality living, wooden instrument.
Where I live there is also no quicker way to have the police banging on the door if one plays before 9 am or after 9 pm during the week or before 11 am on weekends. Digitals are a great way to study pieces (basic coordination, fingering, etc) which are finished on the acoustic.



This reminds me a bit of the sales talks of Steinway salesmen who claim that pianos are a good investment.

I would say: Horses for courses. There are many, many families out there who might be able to barely pay for piano lessons for their child, but not if they first need to come up with 7000 pounds for an instrument. For those living in cities and apartments, piano practicing is less and less tolerated as well. Digitals provide an affordable way to get started that also keeps the peace.

Others like me, want to play more piano than is practicable for our living situation and digitals provide a great solution for us.



And this also illustrates the very attractive option of a Yamaha with their built in Silent function after one has started out on a digital. I have been very favorably impressed with the U1S and U3S. They are very tempting for those who can't play at all hours.

Another difference. When you press the "loud" pedal the action on a digital does not go lighter - as it does on an acoustic.

But the main point stands - better to play a digital than not to play at all

I have a Clavinova but find that when I have lessons on my teacher's grand it takes me about 15 minutes to get a decent sound out of it - I can't get used to the different amount of pressure that is needed and I "lose" all the soft notes. Before I took my last exam, I paid for pratice sessions with an acoustic to help with this.

Recently though, I have been staying at my parents' and playing their hundred year old piano - it sounds terrible! The sound echoes well after I have left the keyboard (and even the room!) Is there anything that can be done about this? Sorry, if this isn't explained very well - I'm not up on the technical side of pianos!

What happens when you put down the sustain pedal on your parents piano? I think sometimes on old piano the felts that usually damp the strings wear out and so the piano sounds as if the pedal is continually depressed (someone who knows more may correct me). It is probably worth getting a good tuner to check it out.

By the way I did try out a silent piano a couple of days ago and I thought there was a very slight difference in touch - not as big as a digital obviously but there was a difference - its hard to tell if over a few weeks this would be negligible or significant. Then again it was a Kemble and not a Yamaha - supposedly made in the same factory - but is there really no difference between a Kemble and Yamaha?

What happens when you put down the sustain pedal on your parents piano? I think sometimes on old piano the felts that usually damp the strings wear out and so the piano sounds as if the pedal is continually depressed (someone who knows more may correct me). It is probably worth getting a good tuner to check it out.

I have a student (working for grade 6) whose home piano, I suspect, may have this problem. She plays as though she is used to not having to think about legato - if that makes any sense. As though non- legato playing is kind of smoothed over for her.

I have advised them to have the piano tuned and ask for a general check at the same time.

I own a digital piano by Yamaha infact. It's one of the P series and its fairly comfortable to play, although I would agree, if there is a choice always buy an organic instrument as the possibilities are limitless. However...there is an however...

I don't think actual weight measuring comes into effect, as you scientifically put it. In short I have played on some Broadwoods (wonderful instruments) which honestly need you to take up weightlifting before any continuity of tone is produced. As well as playing on the Yamaha U series which is okay for the first 8 months then misleadingly easy in fast passages. The ideal instrument would be a well balanced one, not too light a touch and vice-versa.

Digital pianos are perfectly useful for many purposes. Aside from not annoying the neighbours, they are good for mechanical excercises and improving technically, and all the heavier the better to be honest. Injury due to heavy action is inaccurate, injury has a lot more to do with your posture and positioning than with the touch of the instrument. Although a ready-tone is achieved on a digital instrument (and the obvious faults with proper pedalling) it can certainly get you up to any standard, if only technically.

All that being said, do not buy Chinese pianos. (joke!)

Yes! This is just what it sounds like. When you actually do depress the sustain pedal there is a slight difference but not over the whole range of the keyboard. I will ask the tuner about it next time he comes - thanks!

I love my clavinova - though to be honest it was that or nothing, given that I live in a flat on the top floor (no lift). As it was I put my back out helping carry the flat pack up the stairs!

What I really like is getting the sound of a good grand. I *do* miss feeling the set-off point, and I can't quite feel it to be as sensitive as a good acoustic. But it's fine for me at the moment. Interestingly I don't have much trouble adjusting to my teacher's beautiful Steinway grand either, though it's quite different. I found the clavinova approximated to it more if I set the resistance level for the keys to high.

An old thread resurrected. There are several on this topic - but this is the one with the most information.

We have discussed many of the differences between a digital piano and a "real" one: the basic feel of the keys, the nature of the sound, the possibility of dropouts due to limited number of simultaneous notes, unrealistic pedal effects, some pedal effects that are not possible at all, the lack of a "catch"

As I was playing yesterday I suddenly realized the biggest difference of all (and the one that manufacturers are going to find hardest to emulate - if they ever bother)

When you play an acoustic instrument the entire instrument vibrates. You feel this vibration through your fingers. It tells you a lot about the quality of the sound, and the accuracy of your timing

Some more experiment revealed a further tactile feedback mechanism - that when you release a note under control (with finger in contact) you can feel the action of the damper on the strings and can control how suddenly or gradually the note is silenced.

A Yamaha silent series grand piano has a genuine grand piano action complete with catch, moving hammers, and feel of real weight; it makes a good piano sound, and allows pretty realistic use of the pedal. But even one of those does not vibrate under your hands!

I suspect that most pianists are using these two further forms of feedback - maybe not consciously but using them nonetheless - and that their absence is one more factor that contributes to the alien and soulless feel of a digital instrument.


I still think a digital instrument is a lot better than no piano, and for everyone it can be useful for some types of technical drill, for memorizing repertoire, and to take with you to venues that don't have a piano (or not a good one) - but some practice time on a good acoustic instrument now seems more essential than ever.

Glad you resurrected this thread Mad Tom! I bumped into a friend and her small daughter poring over a piano catalogue yesterday - very small daughter is taking group mother-and-daughter lessons with Yamaha, and the Moment has come when they need a piano at home.

Funnily enough, given that an acoustic is not possible (noise, landlord etc), Yamaha are steering parents firmly toward Electones (electronic organs, but getting pretty close to synthesizers) rather than Clavinovas. There's not much difference in price, but apparently the argument used is that the Electones, with all their synthesized sound options and auto-accompaniment features, "offer a rich aural and musical environment to stimulate the child's musicality".



However, the connection between noise and vibration is one that young children definitely make. It's almost worth considering a simple acoustic instrument for children who have to learn on a digital (we have only a simple old YDP-80 digital piano).

Of course, a digital instrument also vibrates if it has built-in speakers, but it doesn't feel exactly the same as an acoustic. And, if you're using speakers rather than headphones, there goes the best reason for having a digital rather than an acoustic.

If you're using headphones anyway, I don't see any reason to insist on a bulky, expensive and rapidly depreciating digital piano: you might as well use software such as Ivory and a MIDI keyboard with the best action you can find. The sound is far more realistic, even if you don't get the tactile sensations that Tom describes. Ivory even comes in a standalone version now.

I've found another difference (between my digital and my singing teacher's acoustic, don't know if this is the same for everyone) - When I already have the sustain pedal down and I add the quiet pedal (to add big pp chord at the end of a dreamy piece which was trailing away softly) the notes already sounding are quiteted too on my digital, but not on teacher's acoustic. On the acoustic the u.c only affects notes struck after it is depressed and not any already sounding.

For practical reasons I have to teach on a digital. We had a Roland which served us well for 12 years and then sort of blew up 4 days before our exams. It has been replaced by a Kawai CA91 which had a terrific write up in the French magazine "Diapason". It is supposed to produce a piano tone almost as good as a concert grand. However, some of my pupils have remarked that "It sounds electronic". I am rather inclined to agree. Has anyone else got one and if so, could they come up with any suggestions as how to regulate it so that we get something less "electronic" and more like our old Roland, I have read the handbook and not found it very helpful. One of the things I liked about the Roland was the quality of the piano tone and I don't find the Kawai as good.

The Kawai CA91 is regarded as equivalent to a midrange Yamaha Clavinova in Japan - but even in Japan, people prefer good Rolands when they can afford them. Some people prefer the Kawai key action, and find the sound warmer, but others just find it fuzzy or "dirty". (Judging from Japanese piano forums, anyway!!)


Step one would probably be to attach a good amp and speakers to the "line out" on your Kawai. You may find that the sound quality is better...and with any luck, your presence will be felt for miles around!

digital pianos are toys and should nto be called pianos they are dolled up synthesisers

acoustic pianos are far better!

Sorry Jonathan but I cannot agree that they are toy instruments. A well regulated and tuned acoustic is better and of that there is no doubt but digital instruments have their place and are far better for learners than the battered and out of tune old bangers which were so very often the alternative for beginners twenty or more years ago. Kids love these instruments and can do so much with them. They do have a place in the world of music and especially in music education. They are small and light enough to be put into a child's bedroom where they can play and practise away from the television and through headphones if needs be. I have many pupils who have chosen digital pianos and some of them will be able to afford acoustic ones eventually but not many parents have three thousand pounds or more to spend on a new hobby these days. To describe them as toys is very unfair. Sorry!

You can rent a reasonable acoustic, for a month, for not much more than the cost of an hour's lesson. You will probably get the rental back if you eventually buy the piano, too. How much does a reasonable digital cost nowadays?

There's no such thing as a free lunch unfortunately, and it is true that you can rent a half decent piano for around thirty pounds a month but there is usually a penalty placed on the contract. If you agree to purchase within six months the sum paid for hire is deducted but not always if it is after that tine. New instruments cost more that that usually. You can buy a good digital piano for around £400 that is perfectly good enough for a new piano player and will carry them through several grades. If the student decides that the piano isn't for them at the end of that time a hired piano goes back to base camp. A digital would remain in situ and could well be picked up and played again by another member of the family. Pianos are easily bought but much harder to sell. If you choose a well respected name all is well, usually but it is far more difficult to sell an older less well known named one. Digitals seem to hold their value quite well, at least for two or three years.
If all parents would hire and maintain their acoustic pianos it would be wonderful but still one sees old wrecks advertised as free to good home or £50, suitable for a beginner and they are often the most off-putting thing that a beginner could have. I would far rather my students had an in tune digital than one of those.

Roland's and Kawai's latest keyboard offerings provide a reasonable escapement simulation giving the feel of playing a grand piano.

You might also look at Yamaha's CP300 stage piano where they are also providing tactile vibration feedback to the keyboard to give the feeling you are playing on an acoustic instrument.

Closer, but not the same (see original post)

But this might be. Thanks

Most classical pianist who have played the best digital instruments from Roland, Yamaha and Kawai would agree that the latest wooden keyboard action from Kawai found on the CA91 offers the most realistic feel and control for classical music practicing and playing. However, Kawai's method of harmonically modelling their top concert grand piano which theoretically allows much more refined reproduction of sound than the 1, 2 or 4 fixed dynamic samples from other brands, is often judged by people to sound inferior or somehow artificial.

The best solution for your CA91 would be to combine its use with the Garritan Steinway samples. You will then be able to enjoy the absolute best digital piano action together with gorgeous, authentic sounding quality samples from a Steinway grand piano. This will require to to have a PC next to your Kawai which is running your virtual Steinway sounds off the Kawai. This is the favored combination of many concert pianists who want the best silent configuration for their practice.

Success!

http://garritan.com/steinway.html

If all parents would hire and maintain their acoustic pianos it would be wonderful but still one sees old wrecks advertised as free to good home or £50, suitable for a beginner and they are often the most off-putting thing that a beginner could have. I would far rather my students had an in tune digital than one of those.

Yes, yes and yes, Petrat.

I was contacted a few months back by a friend of a friend who had a piano she wished to pass on. She was upgrading because her daughter had reached grade 6 and her teacher was insisting that their existing piano was not good enough for her to progress on. Mother wondered if I knew anyone who would like the old piano.

A few questions later (she stressed she didn't want anything for it - how ungracious to look a gift-horse in the mouth!) and I understood that --

a) the piano was old when they had obtained it
b) they had paid almost nothing for it
c) worse still - mother couldn't remember the last time it had been tuned
d) she was certain it had been tuned at least once in the time they'd had it
e) daughter's teacher had been saying for ages that it was not good enough

The child had learnt for about six years on this thing - and how on earth she had managed to get to grade 6 I can not imagine.

No, digital pianos are definitely not toys, although they are variable and some brands are better than others. I'd always prefer an acoustic of course, given the choice, but not many of my beginners are able to start with a decent acoustic, and, often for reasons of space, a digital is an attractive option for them. At least you know what they are using - whereas with an old piano, unless you visit, it's sometimes difficult to know what you are up against.

Thank you all for you helpful remarks. A particular thank you to "imlovinit". Being a mere cypber babe I have no idea how this could work but it sounds as if it could be the solution and I will definitely look into it.

It is interesting to note that my older pupils were all over the moon about the feel of the keyboard. That they did find better than the old Roland so if we can solve the problem of the sound it would be great. If anyone has the patience to explain in words of one syllable (Ladybird book style) exactly what processes I need to go through I would be more than grateful.

On the more general argument about acoustic/ numerique pianos I can only add that my pupils wouldn't be having lessons if we had to use an acoustic piano. My choice would (greedily) be to have one of each if it were possible. I like to have harpsichord to accompany recorders and organ for Christmas celebrations. Lack of premises, dampness of climate and extremes of temperature make housing an acoustic unrealistic. Trying to get a piano tuner here is a non starter even if you get people to group together so that the tuner can do a round. Also I have often to move the piano single handed - and as it stands on a piece of carpet that slides easily over the floor I can do this safely alone or with the help of a medium sized child. I once saw an upright keel over and narrowly miss killing a smalll child. It had been placed in the centre of a stage
on uneven flooring and an adult leant against it.

I agree whole heartedly, a digital is better than an out of tune acoustic which is beyond repair. I had a student who had an ancient piano whicjh had never been tuned on the mother's admission,because when they acquired it she thought that it was not worth tuning as her daughter was a beginner. With the child around Grade 3 we hit a real brick wall. Pedalling was a total enigma to her. Whatever I did nothing was going to unlock the problem. This was when I spoke to mother who told me the story of the piano and then admitted the pedal did not work and it was not worth repairing it as her daughter was only Grade 3. How I wish this child had an electric piano. I liken a poor instrument to giving a learner driver a substandard car. Sometimes this helps the parents to see what I am talking about. It can also be frustrating to a musical child who has a piano that cannot be brought up to concert pitch. They often complain it doesn't sound the same on their piano. So give me an electronic one any day rather than something sub standard. They are not toys.

Lots of very helpful and interesting information and ideas since I revived this thread. Many thanks.

Somewhere I wrote "An electronic piano is an awful lot better than no piano" it should also have said "or a beaten up, worn out, impossible-to-tune acoustic"

And we all know that unless you live alone in a detached house, or with family/partners in a very big one, or do all your practice in professional studios, or have sound-proofed the practice room, then the proposition of extended and serious practice on an acoustic is a non-starter. Family and neighbours can be surprisingly tolerant, but even I would not ask them to put up with more than an hour a day.

Great advice on this thread, especially for those like myself who find themselves in this awkward position -

no space for an acoustic piano at home, and currently living in a flat
need to practice for considerably more than one hour a day (taking grade 8 this year)
the studio which I am currently using for practice (on an acoustic piano) is no longer able to offer me access for practice sessions from September.

So I have no option but to choose a digital piano. Looks like it will be Clavinova or Roland... Have tried Clavinovas and they seem ok.

Word of mouth is always preferable to a salesman's pitch... hooray for forums

denmark

Or Ivory, which knocks spots off every digital piano I have ever tried: http://www.synthogy.com/

And, as with any music software (except those that only come in a PC version), you'd be better off with a Mac.