In discussion about Martha's recent 'buzz' the 'wolf note' was mentioned.

What is it and how would you know you had one?

What's happened with Martha is that the E played in third position on the A string is causing the E string to vibrate in sympathy and it sounds like a double note. It's in tune but it's horrible. Apparently it's partly due to the resonances inside her 'opening up' as her sound develops and she has an incredibly beautiful ring right across the strings now with a lovely sweet sound...apart from this one note. We also think her Evah Pirazzi strings are too harsh and something softer like Obligatos would suit her better. Pity I can't afford to change strings just now. Still got several things to try to get rid of the buzzzzzzzzz!

Anyway, I believe 'wolf notes' are a dissonance... is it still a cross-vibration??

I think the wolf was first noted on the old organs. The notes of an octave do not fit perfectly within an octave. Since octaves have to be an exact 2:1 ratio, musicians had various temperaments to tune to. Todays equal temperament is different than that used by Bach, for example. Bach would likely find our music today terribly dissonant--even stuff we think is beautiful. The temperaments that Bach used produced much sweeter chords and intervals. But the more certain intervals are made consonant, it will cause others to become even more dissonant. The ideal temperament would produce a terribly out of tune interval that no one uses anyway so it won't be an issue.

When two notes are exactly in tune, they sound sweet and smooth. When you start to detune one note, you'll hear the two start to resonate off one another--this is called introducing "beats" in the intervals. The perfect 5th of a piano actually has a slight amount of beats--it's not perfect. If you made it beatless, someother interval is going to end up with more beats and therefore more out of tune. So the temperaments of Bach's time had various intervals with no beats and tried to hide those intervals that were beat to death by simply relegating them to intervals one would not normally play.

From what I gather, when this harsh interval was played on a pipe organ, the beats made it sound like baying dogs hence it was called a wolf. Our equal temperament of today doesn't have a wolf because every note is tempered exactly the same with every other. It's a very precise value but not really something you can do by ear--at least most of us could not. The sacrifice is that we don't have any particularly sweet intervals. That's why a Bach harpsichord piece played on a piano doesn't quite sound right. Harpsichords are made for those old temperaments and the piano uses the modern temperament.

That's why it is not a good idea to tune a guitar by playing harmonics and tuning the harmonics to each other. Those are near perfect tones and when you tune them exactly to each other, you cause other intervals to become more dissonant. So you'll be playing a certain chord and it just sounds plain rotten. How can that be? I just tuned it perfectly!! Well, certain tones were tuned perfectly which threw others off causing a wolf.

From Wikipedia:

Martha's buzz may be the first kind of wolf. Try a blob of blutack on the end of a string between the bridge and the tailpiece. Or can't you just take it back to the maker? He should be able to fix it.

Quillion's wolf is the second kind. In circulating temperaments (i.e you go round the circle of 5ths and get back where you started), some of the 5ths may be narrow and some pure, or as in equal temperament are all narrowed just a little by the same amount (1/12th comma). However earlier temperaments, since they weren't trying to play in all the keys, concentrated on getting good thirds in just a few keys and didn't worry if the circle of 5ths didn't close correctly. The wolf is a wide 5th, such as G# to Eb, and does sound pretty bad. It is not a cross-vibration, though, like the first wolf.

I have a digital practice organ at home which has various historic temperaments - they are gorgeous in the right music.

It is extremely unusual for a violin to suffer from a wolf note. They tend to occur in the viola, cello and double bass, where the resonances are lower.

As far as I'm aware, if an instrument has a wolf note no amount of tweaking the instrument set up will rectify it. They are an inherent part of the body of the instrument and not caused by the string. Have it checked by the maker first, in case it turns out to be something that's worked a bit loose, or even a seam that needs re-glueing!

If it really does turn out to be a wolf note, putting a blob of blutak on the string is not a good idea. Blutak will gum up the string and suppress it entirely. It is possible to purchase (for about £1) a proper suppressor which fits on the string between the bridge and the tailpiece. It is a little cylinder of metal with a screw on it, so that it can be positioned exactly where needed (preferably by a luthier or someone with experience of setting up a violin), without suppressing the entire resonance of the string.


Pirazzi strings are very high tension, even hard - they were designed primarily with the concert hall soloist in mind! Obligato strings will soften and warm the sound, and blend better in ensemble situations.

You may find even changing the strings rectifies the buzzing problem...... start with the simple things first and work inwards from there.

Try Dominants...
Check it's not the mute rattling, and that the chin-rest is tight enough - they add to the vibrations

Sorry, I misunderstood the question and took it as an opportunity to show off my perfectly useless knowledge. This sounds to me like the same phenomenon known among bass guitar players as "dead spots." At certain notes on the neck, the bass either booms out extra loud or the note sort of clunks and dies away. This is due to the frequency of the note resonating in the wood just so that the frequency is either reinforced which causes a boom or the wood vibrates out of phase with the frequency causing cancellation which results in a damping of the note played. The boomy one does have a bit of beat--or maybe that's just the entire house vibrating.

I have a Fender P-bass with one such note each. But with a good amp sound, you can disguise it and if I play them normally it's not a problem but I can't sustain them or it becomes obvious. So I just play the notes elsewhere on the neck. You gotta do what you gotta do. I don't really know how you can eliminate that. I didn't know a fiddle could have that problem. Mine's a cheapie and I don't notice it at all.

Bass-players just live with it. It's part of playing the game of bassing. It shows how good you are that you can work around it. There was a thing called a Fat Finger that you clipped onto the headboard. It was really just a weight. It was supposed to make the wood vibrate differently due to added headstock mass thereby eliminating the dead spot. Instead, if it worked at all, it just moved the deadspot a fret lower. I've never seen a professional player use one because they don't really work except to make your ax a bit heavier.

I'd take the violin to the maker or at least a good luthier to look at it but if the problem is anything like deadspots in the bass guitar, you'll have to live with it.

This is all really interesting.

I did think originally that a 'wolf note' was a dead one.. where the resonance of the body didn't quite work correctly and deadened the note and caused a dissonance but I don't know the technical side.

I've bought a new E string (well ordered it online last night) so I'll see if that works. If not, she goes to visit her maker next week I'm hoping it's not an inherent fault because it's only started in the last week or so.
(I've ordered a Pirastro Eudoxa because it's wound, unlike the Obligato, and seemed to be the softest available.)

Thanks for all the replies.

Wolf notes on string instruments (although rare on the fiddle as AmandaL said) sound like a really wobbly note (in French the term 'rouler' is used - because it sounds like the note is rolling over on itself) - the note suddenly jumps out and makes a kind of wa wa wa wa noise - like bad vibrato. It's not usually a buzzing sound and they don't usually develop suddenly. Amanda is right, if you have a wolf, you can't get rid of it - you can lessen it with a wolf note thingy, but that does cut a little of the richness from the instrument.

The sound you're describing sounds more like an open seam, or - as I suggested in the last thread, a fine tuner collar rattling free when your e string makes a sympathetic vibration (check the little collar on the fine tuner to make sure it's properly fitted).

Hope it works out Lottie!

AmandaL said:
"It is extremely unusual for a violin to suffer from a wolf note. They tend to occur in the viola, cello and double bass, where the resonances are lower"


Sorry, that's just not true. Many excellent violins (including some of the best Strads) have a wolf high up on the g-string, although it often goes undetected because only the more virtuosic players will venture up there (in Tzigane, for instance). Such players will also usually have the "chops" (bow/vibrato control etc) to play through the wolf so no-one else notices.

Okay it's definitely not a wolf note then. It's definitely a buzz.

I spoke at length to the Luthier on the phone last night and have tried a couple of things; I've moved the bridge forward (by about 1.5mm) and that has certainly reduced the buzz but it's still there and still strident , but at least I was able to practice today without hurting my ear. The evidence is that when I play the buzzing note on the A string and then lightly touch the E string with another finger the buzzing stops completely but I can hear it dampens the resonance of the A string.

If the new string doesn't work the Luthier will try moving the soundpost very slightly.

I'll go and take another look at the fine tuner now...

I said 'UNUSUAL', I did not say they don't occur at all on a violin. I don't think you'll find lottie is playing virtuosic music yet and anyway, you don't need to play in 11th position on the G string to play virtuosic music. A few hundred years ago Corelli wowed Europe with his Opus 5 violin sonatas, which don't venture much beyond 3rd position. They are still classified as virtuosic repertoire....

Some orchestral repertoire requires the violinist to venture pretty high onto the G as well - it's not just soloists.

Not that mine is an excellent violin (it isn't!), but I do have a horrible wolf note high up on the G string - around B/B flat. I can't imagine playing an instrument where this is not the case now, though...

Yes, that's where it often is, between bflat and c#.
I wasn't trying to get up anyone's nose by referring to "virtuosic" playing BTW. Simply trying to make the point that wolf notes are actually pretty common on violins, but unlike the case for cellos, the wolf note is not normally within the "comfort zone" for most players, so it goes relatively un-noticed.
I used Tzigane as an example because that has the player right up in the wolf region in the totally exposed opening cadenza. Nasty. You can even hear Perlman struggling a bit to tame the wolf in his recording of the piece!

Changing the tail piece might help a wolf (different weight and/or length), or even adjusting the fastener so that it sits in a slightly different place.

Though it sounds as if Lottie's problem is something else.

Wolf Eliminators

We're pretty sure now it's simply a case of re-adjusting the soundpost slightly so we're going to see her creator on Saturday It's definitely NOT a wolf-note! Thank goodness!

It's just a risk with having a brand new violin but her resonance is so strong and she's so in-tune with herself that the sound is desperate to come out

Despite the 'E' problem my Dad offered me his (utterly gorgeous) violin to play just now but I honestly prefer Martha... she's just everything I was looking for in a violin and you should hear the tone developing..... I think poor Dad was hurt I'm not gaga over his fiddle any more