I'm getting a bass guitar for Christmas (this is one of those assured gifts that you have to pretend to be surprised about ) and I was just wondering down the line I might actually want to learn some classical guitar. (you never know) The classical guitar players here seem to be a lucrative group, always helping out but never really putting themselves out there forum wise so I decided that I should make a topic for people wanting to get to know some classical guitarist, the music a classical guitarist plays, and the guitarist themselves.

Now that I have that out of the way I have a question (to get this topic rolling and to answer a popular question) what is the main difference between a guitar and a "classical" guitar.

(This thread is centered around the classical guitarist and such but if you play guitar at all, feel free to join anyway)

Good for you for starting this off! I hope you do play some classical. Though perhaps not on a bass.

A steel strung guitar has a bigger body and is a good deal louder. Almost anything is louder than a classical guitar which is a problem for performers.

The fingerboard is a lot shorter - 12 frets rather than 15 or more before you get to the body - and is a lot wider so you can't wrap your LH thumb over the top (unless you've got an extraordinary thumb).

Steel strings are ... steel (or are they actually nickel - I'm not sure). Classical strings are nylon or wire-wound nylon. Usually the three bass strings are wire-wound though some manufacturers make a wound third string as well. The tension in a steel strung is a lot higher so they need steel rods in the neck and are comparatively expensive.

The closest thing to a classical is a flamenco. It's almost the same shape but is usually shallower and has a harsher (and of course louder) sound. I think that's because they have body made of spruce - the guitars not the players - and a thin spruce soundboard. Whereas a classical has a hardwood body with a spruce or cedar soundboard. Flamenci have longer hair than classical players unless they are female which flamenco guitarists never are.

But the biggest difference is in the playing style and music ...

A few more differences:

The fingerboard on a classical is also flatter than on a steel strung. And the construction is a little different - probably most easy to spot where the fingerboard joins the body - because a steel strung has to withstand a lot more tension. Classical doesn't normally have any markings on the fingerboard to identify the frets, while quite a lot of steel-strung ones have little inlaid dots behind certain frets.

But, for someone who knows nothing about guitars and who doesn't have a classical and a steel strung guitar sitting next to each other to compare things like width and length of strings, the most obvious visual difference is what it looks like around/near the sound hole.
In the simplest terms - if there's a narrow ring of patterning around the hole, it's classical and if there's a large black splodge near the hole, it's steel strung.

From the playing point of view, one of the biggest differences is that classical hurts less (for someone who hasn't built up some toughness on the pads of their fingers). ;-)

The way you hold it is different too. I have a regular shoulder strap on my classical (left over from when it was my only guitar and I used to use it for chord-based stuff too), but they don't come with a button for one. You can get special classical guitar straps that are a bit like a sax sling, only longer, that pass underneath the guitar and hook onto the lower edge of the sound hole. I've never tried one.
You normally sit down to play classical, and either use a little footstool or arrange things so that you sit in a similar position. You hold the fingerboard much further from horizontal and closer to you. You cosy-up to a classical guitar in a way that you simply don't do with most other instruments.
Hooking your thumb around the fingerboard is a no-no for normal classical playing.

Classical guitar has 6-strings. Some accoustics have twelve. I tried to play some classical stuff on someone else's twelve-string last week. It hurt and it felt and sounded really weird.
When I play classical stuff on my accoustic it's less weird, but still hurts. Playing chords on classical is OK, but with the wider, flatter fingerboard, it's a challenge for some people. Though if you can bar on a classical, you can probably bar on /anything/.

If I could have only one guitar I'd go for classical. :-)

T.

I'm not much help but I tried classical guitar for about a year. I really like the way you do almost 'cuddle' the instrument and I bought a little footstool to make sure my position was correct.

However, my nails kept breaking and my fingers couldn't reach across the strings. I got as far as 'Yankee Doodle' and then gave up. I hadn't had any lessons though so that might have helped.

I think it's a beautiful instrument and I would love to have played some of the classical Spanish things I listened too. Most classical guitarists I've seen seem to be very quiet but hugely intelligent people!

Oh... and my cousin's nanny was the mother of Julian Bream!

Good luck

Not exactly quiet ( ) but I'd definitely go along with Mr LT (PhD) being intelligent! Shame he doesn't get to play much these days......too busy doing clever things......

I can't think of anything else I've played that has the snuggle factor of classical guitar.



I've never even tried to grow my nails for guitar. You need to keep the LH ones short anyway (for fretting) and I need to keep the RH ones short (for archery). I just use the pads of my fingertips to pluck the strings.
(When I say short, I mean /short/. If you look at the backs of my hands, you can see several mm of finger extending past the end of each nail. I keep them as short as possibly can - definitley shorter than they need to be for guitar/archery/whatever - anything else would be too sissy as far as I'm converned.)

So, playing with the pads of your fingers is an option if you can't (or, like me, won't) grow your nails.

Lessons are definitely useful. Posture and hand position are very important for classical guitar, so a few lessons when you first start can help avoid the risk of getting into bad habits which would be difficult to correct later. But you can probably learn quite a bit by yourself if you have good tutor books and maybe a bit of help from a friend who plays.



One of the big attractions is being able to play harmonically complete music and contrapuntal textures all by yourself. And it's got a nice sound.

Sounds about right for the typical classical guitarist. It's not an instrument you play in ensembles much and there's a lot to deal with (reading several notes at once, including lots of ledger lines, knowing which of several possible places on the fingerboard to place each note, co-ordinating complicated fingerings with both hands, etc.) so it's a good choice for someone who's happy to work alone, doesn't need to make a lot of noise, has good concentration and is reasonably bright.

T.

What I like is how (as long as it's been properly tuned) you can get a nice sounding noise out of it even as a relative beginner. At higher levels it's just as challenging as any other instrument, but it's a lot easier on the ear than (say) a violin when you're just starting out.

I have sadly neglected mine over the years. I should really dust it off and start again - it's a beooootiful hand-built Petersen

I think if had to play Yankee Doodle I'd give up too.

*grin*

Lottie> Which book were you working from?

T.

Now this is something I just don't get. When I bought my first classical guitar it had three dots at the harmonic points along the edge of the finger board. Perfect. Then a couple of years ago I upgraded and bought a Ramirez which had a gorgeous tone but no dots. And I kept hitting the wrong intervals. So I took several deep breaths, got out the Tippex, and painted my own dots.

Why do we do this to ourselves? Is it that violinists don't need dots so we shouldn't? Are we jealous of their dotlessness? Or is it just me?

End of rant.

I stuck little stickers on mine. Eventually all but one fell off and I didn't bother to replace them as I found I didn't really need them anyway.
I get a bit disoriented when I play a steel string though, because the 12th fret isn't where I'm used to it being. :-)

T.

So I'm not the only one who's dotty-fied my guitar then. Why would we want nasty multicoloured stickers on our guitars? I think we put the dots on so we dont get 'lost' so to speak, especially when your working in fret 10 or wherever, then moving back to fret 5, it's *really* difficult to do without the dots - or atleast I think it is.

Exactly. All rational people think - know - that it's really difficult to jump up and down half a metre of featureless fingerboard with any accuracy. And as for multicoloured stickers ...

I bet John Williams doesn't have to paint his own dots.

I was going to ask you how you played a steel string guitar without wrecking your nails. But now I know.

I bet he gets someone else to do it for him.

Mine isn't multicoloured - it's a 5mm square of holographic silver. :-)



Well, I do most of my playing on my classical anyway, but I don't have useable nails, so for accoustic I've got a choice of finger pads (like I use for classical) or a pick. When I've tried to use a pick, I end up spending more time trying to shake it out after it's fallen into the soundhole yet again than I spend playing. Plus I prefer to do classical style finger picking rather than strum, so fingers it is. :-)

T.

OOOh.


I remember doing that when I first started. It really used to get on my nerves when I dropped it in the sound hole, again and my guitar teacher picked up my guitar, turned it upside down and shook it once. Out fell the pick.

ahhh yes the whole pick-falling-into-the-soundhole incident. my sister, fortunately, is a bit smarter than me and also tipped it upside down, where as i tried to put my fingers in, while trying not to harm the strings, only to find that i couldn't reach

my uncle has started to play classic guitar

Just went with Daughter to Hanson to choose her Bari Sax and came back with a Classical Guitar (it's supposed ot be her Dad's for Christmas). It's really nice and was made on their premises in Yorkshire.

A good day's work then!

Notmusimum....Noooo...you took your purse when visiting an instrument shop!

Enjoy the guitar! It's not only beautiful to listen to it being practiced, it's been a great "bridge" for son and his less musically adventurous friends.

Youngest is tryiong to teach her Dad guitar lol. Just hope he likes the one we've got him.

Yes I took my purse because it's not a Music Shop lol. It's where the instruments are manufactured. Really didn't expect to come back wiht anything.

My parents bought my brother a guitar for Christmas - I told him I'd "tune it for him" and since have played it much more than he has! It took a while for me to get used to the way the strings are 4ths apart rather than 5ths like a violin - and one of them is a third?

I played 'While Shepherds watched', 'Silent Night', 'We wish you a Merry Christmas', 'Good King Wenceslas', 'Au Clair de la Lune', 'When the Saints' etc - I'm quite the professional I think you'll agree!

Hmm, I have about 200 dollars left from christmas (My mom bought me this electronic drum ket but I knew I wouldn't use it often so she took it back and gave me the money) and it seems I have just enough for a classical guitar. Sucks, I have to stop biting my nails....

Just do it. And you can still bite the nails on your left hand.

Tou may have seen on another thread that my daughter has spent since September learning to play London's Burning on Classical Guitar (teaching soemone else in reality) Despite having played guitar for a couple of years but mainly rock. At somepoint they are going to be expected to work towards playing another piece which she can already play. She's had this mad idea that if she takes some classical Guitar music to school she might be able to play that in the Music lesson instead. Can anyone recommend a couple of books suitable for a beginner with some experience.

You could look at Frederick Noad's "Solo Guitar Playing" Book 1. It's starts from scratch but progresses at quite a rate and I'm sure she'll find it challenging. It has a lot of good music in it and it tells you how solve technical porblems (and I'm glad to say it doesn't include Yankee Doodle).

Thanks I'll order it with the next batch of Music. I think if she has to play anymore similar pieces that she might go on strike!! Whether the Teacher will actually let her play anything other than the pieces she dictates is a different story and after what I've heard I doubt that she will.

Or play with the pads of your fingers. I cut my nails really short on both hands (or bite them short - I'm not a habitual nail-biter, but it's a convenient way of getting the job done if I don't happen to have my swiss army knife to hand).

Especially if it's not going to be your first study instrument, I really don't think it matters much. And nylon strings aren't hard on your fingers (I can fingerpick a steel stung accoustic with my pads too and even that's not particularly owie).

T.

Teigr, Nylon strings hurt your fingers when you start to play chords!

Not as much as steel ones do!

Anyway, if you look back you'll see I was talking about fingerpicking rather than fretting, though it holds for both.

T.

I really enjoyed the John Mills book, "Guitar Music from the Student Repertoire", comes with a wee CD these days. I'm sure that when I first bought a copy, cd's hadn't been invented... (oh what it is to be old!)
I also had the Freddy Noad book when I was learning, which was good for technique, and does have some lovely pieces, I just preferred the pieces from the Mills book. (Plus it had the music from Hammy hamsters 'Tales of the Riverbank' in there too (Not it's official title!)) What? No one remembers hammy hamster? Oh, pass the zimmer frame quick! I need to get out of here!

I remember Tales of the Riverbank and Hammy Hamster! In fact the guitar theme music from that made me long to be able to play the guitar. When I was a child, sitting in front of the black and white TV, I thought it was the most beautiful sound I'd ever heard. Now, only 40-something years later, I'm coming up to my first anniversary of guitar lessons. Haven't quite got as far as the Guiliani Andante in C yet, but I hope to get there.
Amazing where Hammy Hamster will get you!

Suzukimom

There's a duet version of the piece in one of the Debbie Cracknell tutors (can't remember exactly but would guess it was book 1). Would make a nostalgia trip a bit more accessible - so long as you have somebody to play it with!


I remember Tales of the Riverbank and Hammy Hamster! In fact the guitar theme music from that made me long to be able to play the guitar. When I was a child, sitting in front of the black and white TV, I thought it was the most beautiful sound I'd ever heard. Now, only 40-something years later, I'm coming up to my first anniversary of guitar lessons. Haven't quite got as far as the Guiliani Andante in C yet, but I hope to get there.
Amazing where Hammy Hamster will get you!

Suzukimom
[/quote]

Keep practicing and someday you'll be this good:

http://tabs.guitarworld.com/videos/show/65/getting-better

(And check out how he plays Elton John's "Your Song")

You can buy little fret dots from Stafford guitar. The glue in them doesn't damage the varnish (like other stickers, and erm, felix, TIPPEX!!!!!) and they are little so really only you see them. I've got some, but haven't put them on yet, because I do find I can feel my way round the fretboard pretty well without them.

I think there is some pretentiousness about the dot thing, though, you're right, felix.

There's a new guitar syllabus coming out this summer for ABRSM exams...the accouncement says something about changes in technical requirements.

I'm curious to see those, and also what the new pieces wil be.

Any big favorites or surprising discoveries in the current syllabus?

Any big hopes for the new syllabus?

Son's teacher didn't know about British composer Gerald Garcia, and was quite taken with the etude of his that was/is in the Grade 5 syllabus - he quite often gets Viohazard to trot it out as something a little bit different.

My tutor mentioned something along the same lines.

I'd be very interested what the new pieces for Grade 8 will be and if they'll go more like the Trinity exams in terms of technical requirements i.e. less scales/arpeggios, rasgueado, harp glissandos etc.

Do you have a link to the announcement?

S

I found it here myself, it doesn't reveal much:

http://www.abrsm.org/?page=exams/regs/ukIr...otices2008.html

S

Nigel Scaife on new guitar syllabus

This was pointed out in the Feb. Chief Examiner's Q&A.

The approach to scales is explained quite clearly - should be a syllabus to look forward to!

A very interesting read. It looks like there will be a welcome overhaul to the syllabus.

S

I agree lol

Where does everyone else's D string break?

Mine usually goes at the second fret, but today it had broken at the bridge. Luckily there was quite a bit of spare at the other end, so I was able to take it off and reattach it instead of having to get out a brand new string.

T.

Last time mine broke was around about the 3rd/4th fret.... or was it the string below? oh, I can't remember. I ended up with a whole set of new strings, though.

Can't say that I've had one break for years. I use D'Addario EJ46 Hard Tension on one guitar and EJ45 Normal Tension on my older guitar and have found that they're good, consistent (very important after too many problems with Savarez strings in this regard) and neutral (they allow the guitar's sound to come through) strings.

I also change them every two to three weeks (I play an awful lot) so they don't really have chance to get to the stage where they're going to break.

If your strings start breaking consistently at the bridge (or the nut) then it might be an idea to check for sharp edges or snags in these areas as that could be making things worse.

Cheers,

Matt.

I don't play seriously, so I generally change strings only when they break. First time in years that I've had the D break anywhere apart from 2nd fret. (Was planning to investigate further if it goes at the bridge again.)
Nice thing about a break at the bridge rather than the 2nd fret is being able to reuse the string. Might even extend its useful life as the part that was at the 2nd fret is now somewhere else, so won't get as much wear.

T.

I hadn't broken a string in years then I've had a spate of them, and several different brands. Maybe it's a conspiracy by the manufacturers. Mostly they seem to have broken where they press on the frets (not too surprising). I change them couple of months or so if I remember, or when they sound dull. I don't think I could stand changing them more often because they're out of tune for the first week or so.

That, plus the cost, is why I don't change mine unless I have to. :-)

T.

Hmmmm.

Strange, a whole week.

As I've said earlier, I use D'Addario's and have found them good for intonation, durability and non-breakage (as it were).

My strings are generally played in within a day or so (max) so it goes Change them (20 mins), leave them (six hours), play them with tuning up (two hours - barely worth getting her out of the case for less), then another leave of 4 hours and a quick tune up.

Generally sorts it.

Compared to the cost of Violin strings I think we guitarists get a bargain (six strings for under a tenner compared to close on £30 for four violin strings.

Worth changing more often.

Cheers,

Matt.

You're telling me!

Changing the strings is an easy way to re-motivate yourself - instant improvement in tone.

D'Addario is the favorite here, though son uses the XP (extended play) type. They do seem to stay in good condition longer, though I understand some people don't like the "feel" as much. Old leather-fingers doesn't seem to notice a great difference...