The question

Put a minor (melodic/harmonic) scale into a keysignature, in this instance A melodic minor

My (wrong) answer

Take the note
and use Father Christmas Gets Dad An Electric Blanket, Blanket Explodes And Dad Gets Cold Feet and see how I can apply A to that.

If its sharps I want then A minus one semitone is G# (but then it could be D(ad) - with A(nd) being the 2nd to last word in which case I'd want flats - but in this case I know I dont) - EDIT THATS WRONG THOUGH RIGHT BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE Ab?
But going with my first answer I need to write in 3 sharps F(ather), C(hristmas), A(nd)
and that seems incorrect, those are the sharps for A major. (correction there;) )

The problem

How do I know if I want flats or sharps?
And surely these rhymes (Father Christmas etc) dont give you the signatures for major and minor because minor always flattens the 3rd degree? Would someone kindly construe this stuff for me!

Sorry you might have to run that past me again. For grade 3 it shouldn't be too complicated.

Do you know the circle of fifths? If you don't you should have a look at it - it all becomes crystal clear after that!

If I understand you correctly, you are looking at scale construction. Each letter of the scale has to be used only once (except in chromatic scales) so it is relatively straightforward to work out whether you need to use sharps or flats.

A melodic minor has no sharps or flats in its key signature.
Ascending = A,B,C,D,E,F#,G#,A
Descending = A,G,F,E,D,C,B,A

(A major has 3 sharps - F, C and G - maybe where you are getting confused?)

I think I know what you mean....

If you want to work out what key signature should be put in for a minor key, then you first of all have to count up 3 semi-tones - this'll get you the relative major key.

For example:

If the piece is in A minor, count up 3 semitones....you can C major. So the relative major of A minor, is C major.

You then have to work out what sharps or flats are in that MAJOR key sig - which you know from using your 'Father Christmas' and 'Blanket Explodes' rhymes.

The key signature for your minor key, will be the same as its relative major.

Hope that helped

Laura

(try again!)

This is the best image of the Circle of Fifths that I can find at present - there are others - as applied to the diatonic scales.

It's self explanatory - you apply the "Father Christmas....." rhyme to it to work out the order/number of sharps/flats. All you need to do then is figure out, with the minor scales, whether you need to add additional sharps or flats. As long as you use each letter once, it shouldn't be too difficult to work out.

Good luck!

Ahh thanks, not my question but important stuff I didnt know...





Thats basically it thanks, phew I was about to give up theory alltogether.

Sorry guys that I wrote it with only vague coherence.

That's better!

Glad that Laura answered your question.

Yay, glad I could help




Great circle of 5ths diagram there LT!! I must admit, I never understood the circle of 5ths until I learnt the sharps and flats for each key sig!! haha!!

I drew it all myself (not! ) This way is a lot easier I think!

What I understand so far is it also gives you the order like Father Christmas... - clockwise = sharps anti clockwise= flats. The one I have in the book is empty in the middle just giving you the plain order round the outside but I think some have more info?

*cries* I dont know how to do anything else other than that. For minors, I dont know how to get the number to which I might need to add additional sharps or flats, is it by how many steps you go round the circle?

I find one thing that help to pair up the major/relative minor keys signatures is always to practise your scales and arpeggios in related pairs. So if you practice C major pair it up with A minor and so on.

In my experience, even though you may not need to know the complete circle of fifths until beyond Grade 3 Theory if you don't really familiarise yourself with it from the start you will always get stuck. Now the way I teach it by drawing by hand around a saucer may be a bit low tech compared with looney tunes version, but there is a distinct advantage in drawing it yourself and thinking about sharpening the leading note and how flattening the fourth is the same function in reverse by considering the major scale as two stacked tetrachords.

Relative minors I treat as the mode that has survived and the versions of the scale are due to Musica Ficta so that we actually liked the way the turned out.

Once you understand the Circle of fifths you can also introduce Perfect, Plagal and Imperfect cadences by looking at the closed related keys that form the Dominant and Subdominant Chords.

I don't introduce the circle of fifths until students already know enough key signatures to be able to see the pattern emerging. I see it as an extra aid to memory, rather like All Cows...... not as the way to learn it in the first place. Also if they know the first 3 or 4 it's not necessary to remember the rest as once the pattern is understood it can be easily worked out.
I also never talk of sharpening the leding note but prefer to say "raise by a semitone" as removes the possible confusion when 'sharpening' doesn't acually involve a sharp.

Matt, Have you asked your teacher to explain it again for you? As a teacher if someone doesn't understand something then I generally consider that it's my problem rather than theirs and that either I'm teaching a concept too soon or that I've gone about it the wrong way for that student.
It might be a case of having missed out a step or 2 on the way to learning this and you need to slow down a little.

See if this helps.....

The key signature for C minor has 3 flats - Bb, Eb and Ab. This is the construction for the melodic minor descending ie

C, Bd, Ab, G, F, Eb, D, C. Easy so far.....

To work out the melodic minor ascending it's worth going back to the C major scale which has no sharps or flats ie

C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

To get the ascending melodic you need to flatten the 3rd note of the scale so you get

C, D, Eb, F, G, A, B, C - with key signature = C, D, Eb, F G, Anat, Bnat, C

To work out the harmonic minor, again go back to the C major scale and flatten the 3rd and 6th notes ascending AND descending ie

C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B, C - again with key signature you will need a Bnat.

Clear as mud?

Melodic scales ascending are like the major scale, but instead of having a major third, the third is flattened (minor third), they go down exactly as the key signature. Every Pianist I've taught to play melodic minor scales that way have wound them easy and prefers playing them to harmonic minors. This is not the case however, with woodwind pupils!

I know the intervals for scales! (dont be annoyed with me please)
I'm just trying to figure out the circle because basically I need a way to remember in the exam.

Thanks you guys for all your inputs

Matt. I'm not annoyed, as a theory teacher I'm extremely patient.

Best thing for you to do is take LT's chart and draw your own. Draw around a saucer and a tea cup in the middle for the minor keys. Set C major at the top draw an arrow clockwise and put + # draw another arrow anti-clockwise and put + b, in the inner circle write the names od the relative minors.

When you have done that and slept on that see how that goes in. If that does't work we'll have to try something else.

Alright, I'm doing this now.

The circle of fifths is easier to remember than you think. I'm sure you know this already.

For the sharps - go up in fifths relative to the previous scale

C (no sharps)
C to G (1 sharp)
G to D (2 sharps)
D to A (3 sharps)
A to E (4 sharps)
E to B (5 sharps)
B to F# (6 sharps)

For the flats - go down in fifths relative to the previous scale (a little trickier)
C (no flats)
C to F (1 flat)
F to Bb (2 flats)
Bb to Eb (3 flats)
Eb to Ab (4 flats)
Ab to Db (5 flats)
Db to Gb (6 flats) - enharmonic equivalent of F#

The sharps being more logical, once I get to F# I then work back from Gb and recall the order of violin strings (G,D,A,E) and add Bb and F. Hey presto! You're back to C.

Good luck!

Matt - maybe I can help but don't want to confuse you.

When I teach the circle of 5ths I call the circle a 'clock' face which can go half-way round clockwise for the sharps or half-way round anti-clockwise for the flats depending which way you want to go (with a little overlapping at six o'clock for some useful enharmonic changes).

Imagine the C for Cinderella at the top at twelve o'clock. No sharps or flats. Go round five minutes (five letters including the C) clockwise to one o'clock - G major = one sharp. Continue round until you reach six. You should now be on F# major with six sharps. Move on an extra five letters to reach seven o'clock - that is the absolute limit - C# major = seven sharps. You can do an enharmonic change here to five flats Db major and continue your journey clockwise back up to Cinders again taking off a flat as you go.

To work out the minors imagine an 'inner circle' of minor keys inside the major outer circle. As someone has already said the majors and minors pair up. For example - back to Cinders C again - count down three letters (in semitones) and you will get A. Three down from G - you get E etc - the outer circle majors and the inner circle minors will have the same key signature. I sometimes write capital letters for the majors and lower case letters for the minors.

I'm not sure if Father Christmas is very helpful !


PS I've just noticed Jod has more less said the same

Of course I would! It makes sense!
The last piece of the exercise is to draw a C major scale and divide it into two tetrachords to show why flattening the 4th is the inverse funtion to sharpening the 7th.

I always like to acknowledge other posts if I have inadvertently repeated something already stated.

Anyway, I wrote out the C major scale in a straight line and divided it into the two tetrachords and found myself experimenting with connecting up the letters in the cycle - C up to G, back to D up to A, back to E up to B etc. Looks like a 'cats cradle' now. I then drew out the scale in a circle, connecting up the same notes and ended up with the best seven point star I have ever drawn. I have never thought of doing this before. However, do you mean sharpening the 4th and flattening the 7th to get the F# side and the Bb side of the cycle?! Otherwise I don't understand why you would want an Fb and a B# and you will have to explain - thanks!

Edit: I think I see now you are describing a way to find the last sharp and the last flat. I guess we all have different ways of explaining things.

Post deleted

Hey.

Thanks to everyone again, I've honestly read everyones posts and am putting a sort mental jigsaw puzzle together.

Jod, I've drawn out the circle and that has helped.

My question now is, how does this work in the exam? It is usual to memorize the whole thing or are you allowed to "work stuff out on a piece of paper"? - important question about the exams really.

I just did it........and I get it!!
I love it when I understand something

This is true, but needs a bit of care. There are two ways of counting your three semitones:

1) Augmented second = one diatonic semitone and two chromatic (e.g. A to B#)
2) Minor third = two diatonic semitones and one chromatic (e.g. A to C), which is the one you want.

From Ab minor, you might count up three semitones on the piano and call the note B, but the relative major is Cb.

If it helps you to use it as a memory aid then draw it on the rough paper prvided before you start.
You can't take it in the exam with you written out but you can carry it in your head and write it down once the exam starts.

Glad I can be of some assistance.

The trick is once you know how the circle of fifths works you only need to remember the order the sharps come in and the last sharp and you are there. note it is always two back from the place you are on the circle.

A Grade 3 student won't have encountered augmented second intervals.

There's no risk of arriving at the wrong key if you count the letter names, as BusyBee suggested, as well as the semitones which singerpianist suggested. Then the student doesn't need to take into account whether they are diatonic or chromatic, which, in my opinion, is making it unnecessarily complicated at Grade 3 level.

A keyboard diagram helps.

A quick summary of an easy method (in my opinion) of working out a major key, from its relative minor:

1. Draw a keyboard (one or two octaves)*
2. Count 3 letter names
3. Count 3 semitones

Three stages, three letters, three semitones... and three seconds to work out it once you've drawn your keyboard. It's as easy as ABC or 123, particularly for Grade 3.

-----------------

* The keyboard does not have to be drawn literally! - you only need to write out the pattern of notes, eg one octave would be:

C ' D ' E F ' G ' A ' B C

(the 'tick' represents the black key, ie the sharp or flat)