How easy is it to sight-read something in the treble clef and at the same time transpose it down one or two octaves to be able to play it on the cello?

My daughter was asked to do this by her solfège teacher (all the other children in her class play either the piano or treble clef instruments) and found it very hard - she is about grade 3 standard.

I'm wondering whether to get her to practise doing this at home or to try and tell her solfège teacher that she is asking her to do something which is really very difficult at her level.

I'd do both! It's hard - yes. Especially if your daughter doesn't play the piano. But it's also very good for her general musical knowledge....

I kinda tend to think that, if you know what the note is on the stave - any 'cleffed' stave, then you should be able to play that note higher or lower anywhere on the whole scale. I managed it OK transposing down an octave in alto clef as a beginner once I knew what the notes were. The sticky part was just my inability to play my instrument well!!!

I know that strictly speaking this is true but her reading ability in the treble clef is not brilliant - she still tends to work it out (albeit quickly) by thinking "in the bass clef that would have been a an E so I move it down a line and it's a C." Also transposing this way involves looking ahead to decide if you need to transpose down one octave or two. She said she had gone down one octave and then got stuck when there was an E which would have involved her shifting up to fourth position which she has never done at sight (her teacher always writes in where to shift).

She thought it was a bit unfair that she was the only one who was being expected to transpose since everyone else could just sight read and play in the treble clef and the piece was also in F major which is not a particularly user friendly key for a cellist.

Somebody mentioned "transposing at sight" as an example of a skill which is rarely tested or used a while back, and I chuckled, because transposition is rarely tested as a written skill in Japan, but it is sure to appear in auditions and practical entrance exams!

Since our aurals are based on French solfege, I assume that means your daughter may well be tested on this skill in future too.

Good luck! I do think it takes practice for strings players, as it's not a commonly used skill.

To be honest, she needs to learn to read treble in its own right, not by the 'it would be x in bass' method. That loses a lot of time. It's far better to learn it by itself and it really doesn't take that long - there aren't that many notes to learn, after all!! I know it's challenging at first - I've had to learn to read a new clef too, being a viola learner, but it's much better to learn it cold and through the front door than losing time on back door translations.

Interesting discussion - but this isn't just about reading different clefs & theoretically transposing, it's about how it applies to actually playing the note on a particular instrument............
I play piano & read treble & bass clef equally well; I play the flute so can read lots of leger lines easily enough - but find lots of treble leger lines slightly more difficult to identify in piano music than flute music. I played cello as a child & read bass, tenor & treble clef cello music. But if given treble clef cello music I would be most uncomfortable playing it anything other than at pitch. Putting it down an octave would be incredibly difficult I think. When playing flute in church & sightreading & improvising a harmony line using the alto & tenor lines out of a hymn book it's quite challenging to read a treble clef line & bass clef line, work out which notes form the best harmony & play it up 1 or 2 octaves depending on whether I've taken from the tenor line or alto line. Essentially I pick up the flute & to me it's a treble clef instrument & I automatically read & finger the treble clef. So reading bass clef notes & playing up 1 or 2 octaves needs concentration.
I guess if she can work on it now it's going to really improve her reading/playing but it is going to be challenging.

I find that, too. I also find legers above the stave far less scary than legers below and leger lines on bass or alto clef much less automatic than on treble (my reading of treble is much more fluent than of bass or alto even though I'm OK at reading those).

I quite often read from the bass clef and transpose whilst playing the flute and don't have a problem - it's automatic to transpose to an appropriate octave and I don't find it hard to read bass clef and play on a treble clef instrument... I quite often swap between lines between verses to vary the harmony, or swap mid verse if there's a particularly juicy bit of harmony I like playing... a C is a C is a C, and what clef I am reading it from/where I am transposing to are not something I have to think about... BUT - I am I suspect more fluent in bass than your daughter is in treble just yet, and I have been playing the flute a long time so don't have to worry about thinking about fingerings once I know what note I am aiming for, it's pretty automatic and so it's far, far easier than if it were an instrument I had not been playing for that long. SO I think it's pretty tough thing she's being asked to do.

Even then, though 99% of the time I don't have to think about it and can play any of the lines competently wherever on the flute I decide to play 'em, I'll STILL have moments where I have total bass-clef blindness and have a mare/play something totally unrelated to what I am reading! & I have no idea at all what it would be like to do try & it from alto clef which is probably a fairer representation of what treble is like for your daughter... I think I could do it but it would require brain gymnastics that would be pretty taxing

I also think that at least to some extent transposing at the octave is easier on an instrument like the flute, which has obvious similarities between the octaves (even more so, on, say, piano - where position on the keyboard is the difference), than on a string instrument where playing an octave higher or lower generally involves a different fingering on a different string I've done that on violin, I think, and certainly done it on viola, but it involves more brainpower, & is not something I would do _nearly_ as confidently or as easily as on flute. Probably also because I'm not as good as strings as at flute, yes, but even so, I've been playing the violin for a very long time and it would still phase me more to try it on that than on the flute, and I think it's just less obviously logical on strings. And particularly cello where even just to play sharps and flats can involve a different finger (as opposed to just a different finger position) or even a change of position. Eeek.

One thing I DO find helpful, though I don't think about it consciously, is playing by interval rather than by note - ie once I am in the right place on the instrument, then I don't tend to be going "A, B, G, D" but more likely "third up, 2nd up, 4th down" and trusting in my fingers to stay on key. Whether this will help or not probably depends on how fluently she reads intervals, though, I guess.

Um. Sorry, I've waffled a lot, don't know how much is useful. Oops hopefully a little, even amongst all the randomness.

On the whole... I think it's a useful skill, & possibly a good one to try... but I think it's an awfully tough task to be asked of your daughter at this stage in her cello playing & I think it's rather unreasonable for her teacher to ask this of her when all the other children are playing from a clef they are used to and (one assumes) not having to transpose. The teacher should SURELY know that this is tough for a child at her stage of playing, and even if she "has" to set these tasks for some reason, she should certainly take into account that your daughter is performing a much more complex task than others playing treble-able instruments who are, presumably, just basically doing some sight-reading.

I'm inclined to agree with cellocase - do both... as, as long as it doesn't totally throw her, it's a great skill to have/practise, BUT her teacher really must be made aware (if she isn't already) of what she's asking your daughter to do & how difficult it is.

Yes, that was my point. She can do a written octave transposition exercice easily. It was the practical side of things that are causing a problem.


I do the same thing if I am playing bass clef music on the oboe. I have no real problem if the music is easy but I do find that if the music becomes a little more challenging for whatever reason I suddenly no longer know which clef I am reading in and what note I want to play. I also find that if there is a repeat and I suddenly have to visually jump up to the top of the page I lose track of what the interval is and can't find the right note. As you may have seen from another post identifying intervals is not one of the things my daughter can do so this is of no help to her.



I also thought her teacher could have transposed it down for her before the lesson. She writes the things on a computer programme so presumably she could have transposed it with one click of the mouse. Because her teacher is a pianist and a singer I'm not convinced that she realises how hard it is for my daughter. After all on a piano it is not a problem.

What is supposed to be the purpose of this excercise?

Not too sure but (as far as I can tell) practising sight-reading and learning to play together.

If that's the case then she should have something suitable to play from.
Something in the right clef, at the right octave and using notes/positions she could reasonably expected to read.

I remember you've come across this sort of problem before with the theory not being well matched to level haven't you?

D'oh. Yes, I did know that


Definitely sounds like it's worth talking to her then. Yes, if she does it on the computer then surely it wouldn't be that hard to provide suitable music for your daughter I'm sure your daughter can and will get to the stage that she'll be able to do this, but to expect it at her age and how long she has been playing etc is crrrrrrrazy if you ask me


- she's not really practising sight-reading at the moment, is she? - the teacher really really needs to have it pointed out that this is not appropriate - she should know that IMO but if she doesn't she really needs to be told. Bah. Do hope you manage to get something sorted.

You are right, I have.

In fact I am finding these classes increasingly frustrating. This year they last for an hour and a half which is a long time for a ten-year-old. (Lessons are the same length for the 10 year old approx. grade 3-4 students and for the 17 year old approx. grade 8 students which is in itself a problem, I think). Part of me thinks I should just say to my daughter it doesn't matter; do what you can and ignore the rest but she hates being in a situation where she doesn't understand which is why I try to patch things up at home. Her theory teacher is not approchable (I did try at the end of last year) and her cello teacher (when I've mentioned it to her) sighs and says "you're right, it's not really suitable but what can we do?" I also discovered this year that the music school doesn't even have any internal programme - each theory teacher (there are three of them) does whatever they want and when pupils have a different teacher the following year it is often an absolute disaster because each follows their own programme regardless of what the children have done the year before. I console myself (and my daughter) with the thought that this is the last year she will have to do this as next year she is going to a secondary school with a music option and the theory will be taught in school time by someone else.