Forums > Orchestral Instrument Questions And Other

path-beeth

Oct 21 2007, 09:11 AM

Dear all...

eventhough i have passed grade 5 theory but actually i still dont know many things

maybe i passed with lucky

who is the highest in the woodwind family? flute or piccolo? because picoolo is 'just' additional member of the orchestra.

Could brass or woodwind families play double notes?

is it correct? bass, tenor, contralto,mezzo-soprano, sopran (from lowest to highest)

and in music theory in practice by Eric Taylor grade 5 in last exercise (exercise 39 about Ravel's string quartet in last page) question f..why do you think brackets have been put around three accidentals in the upper part of the treble stave.... could we just answer it 'because it was written in short score' ?

thank you so much for your help

Malone

Oct 21 2007, 09:20 AM

Piccolo is the highest member of the orchestra.

Yes, some woodwind can play double notes, they are called multiphonics. The oboist in from of me in one of the orchestras I play in has to play multiphonics. Its quite uncommon though and probably didnt come about until late romantic period.

Yes, your order of voices is correct, but you've missed out the Altos!! I would be very upset!

I dont have that book so cant answer your question without examining the score a bit.

sarah123

Oct 21 2007, 09:32 AM

Just had a look at my old theory in practice book. They're there to make sure the person playing the top part doesnt play the accidentals indicated for the lower parts (eg gsharp and g natural are played at the same time). I don't think they're strictly necessary, but probably just the composer (or editor) being helpful.

pianotheory

Oct 21 2007, 09:40 AM

And malone, how is it possible to play two notes at once on a wind instrument?

sarah123

Oct 21 2007, 10:02 AM

QUOTE(pianotheory @ Oct 21 2007, 10:40 AM)

And malone, how is it possible to play two notes at once on a wind instrument?

No idea how you do it but i keep doing it when things go wrong

ChrisC

Oct 21 2007, 10:18 AM

QUOTE(pianotheory @ Oct 21 2007, 10:40 AM)

And malone, how is it possible to play two notes at once on a wind instrument?

Some fingerings produce combinations of harmonics that sound like two (or more) notes played at once, especially if using a "bad" embrouchure.

Another way is to play one note and sing or hum another at the same time. If this is done just right, more harmonics can appear to make it sound like a chord - I think this is used in the cadenza of a Weber horn piece for example.

Chris

sarah123

Oct 21 2007, 10:26 AM

QUOTE(ChrisC @ Oct 21 2007, 11:18 AM)

QUOTE(pianotheory @ Oct 21 2007, 10:40 AM)

And malone, how is it possible to play two notes at once on a wind instrument?

Some fingerings produce combinations of harmonics that sound like two (or more) notes played at once, especially if using a "bad" embrouchure.

Another way is to play one note and sing or hum another at the same time. If this is done just right, more harmonics can appear to make it sound like a chord - I think this is used in the cadenza of a Weber horn piece for example.

Chris

I can do both of these

The first one is, as i said not generally intended. I never realised the humming thing was an actual technique.

Malone

Oct 21 2007, 11:50 AM

QUOTE(pianotheory @ Oct 21 2007, 10:40 AM)

And malone, how is it possible to play two notes at once on a wind instrument?

Special fingerings, and incredible embouchure control.

When you start the flute, beginners often play two octaves of one note at once by accident. When you are more advanced, it takes alot of control to get that right shape in order to do both at once! My flute teacher makes me do it as part of my warm up.

It doesnt sound like two flutes playing together by the way! Its a rather odd sound!

Rosemary7391

Oct 21 2007, 01:24 PM

Yes - I can do that on clarinet too (With the help of my desk - the fingerings can be rather contorted!). You go from trying to play one note and getting 2 to trying to play 2 and gettng 1

singerpianist

Oct 21 2007, 04:15 PM

QUOTE(path-beeth @ Oct 21 2007, 10:11 AM)

is it correct? bass, tenor, contralto,mezzo-soprano, sopran (from lowest to highest)

QUOTE(Malone @ Oct 21 2007, 10:20 AM)

Yes, your order of voices is correct, but you've missed out the Altos!! I would be very upset!

I was the book that left out the alto's from the list!!! I was doing the paper and was like "where are the altos!!!

" "

Actually on second readings, isn't a contralto the same thing as an alto?

sarah-flute

Oct 21 2007, 04:18 PM

QUOTE(Malone @ Oct 21 2007, 12:50 PM)

When you are more advanced, it takes alot of control to get that right shape in order to do both at once! My flute teacher makes me do it as part of my warm up.

It doesnt sound like two flutes playing together by the way! Its a rather odd sound!

It's quite cool though on some multiphonics. But no, not very flutey. I found there were a couple of multiphonics I could do straight away when I was just having a god... then when I "tried" to do them, I found them soooo hard to make work

QUOTE(Rosemary7391 @ Oct 21 2007, 02:24 PM)

You go from trying to play one note and getting 2 to trying to play 2 and gettng 1

pianotheory

Oct 22 2007, 01:42 PM

QUOTE(singerpianist @ Oct 21 2007, 05:15 PM)

QUOTE(path-beeth @ Oct 21 2007, 10:11 AM)

is it correct? bass, tenor, contralto,mezzo-soprano, sopran (from lowest to highest)

QUOTE(Malone @ Oct 21 2007, 10:20 AM)

Yes, your order of voices is correct, but you've missed out the Altos!! I would be very upset!

I was the book that left out the alto's from the list!!! I was doing the paper and was like "where are the altos!!!

" "

Actually on second readings, isn't a contralto the same thing as an alto?

A contralto is a single alto.

Is it possible to play multiphonics on a recorder?

jonscott14

Oct 24 2007, 10:43 PM

Brass can play double notes - multiphonics - one note is sung, whilst the other played.
This works best in the lower brass - it is very hard to do on the trumpet, whist it is very effective on the tuba, euphonium, trombones and french horn (where it was first used).
Multiphonics on the tuba and euphonium can be controlled - and virtuoso players often like to play a duet with themsleves as a party piece.

Malone

Oct 25 2007, 08:21 AM

According to wikipedia - the font of all knowledge, alto, is short for contralto. I thought it was a slightly higer voice or something, like counter tenor, but I was wrong... That happens rather alot!

Recorders can do multi phonics yes. Either with special fingering or by singing and playing. I was reading about extended technique on the recorder the other week, very interesting the range of things it can do and you would never have thought!

-

QUOTE

Avant garde or extended techniques possible on the recorder include multiphonics achieved either by special fingerings or else by humming and playing at the same time, microtones, extended range upwards and downwards, flageolet tones, slap tonguing, sputato, flutter tonguing, glissandi, playing shakahuchi style by blowing across the mouthpiece, playing the head-piece alone like a Swanee whistle or by shading the windway, playing without a headpiece cornetto style, using one of the tone holes to play the recorder like a flute, clicking against the instrument with a metal ring, and playing two recorders at the same time. Samuel Pepys described the latter for flageolets (one low and soft) in 1668; and John Hawkins (1776) relates that John Bannister II (1662-1736) was famous for playing on two recorders at once.

singerpianist

Oct 25 2007, 11:15 AM

I got a question in a grade 5 paper (practise paper) which said "name a standard orchestral percussion instrument whic has a definite pitch" (or something)

What instruments could I have chosen here? I think I ended up writing a glokenspiel down....

tbjhilton

Oct 25 2007, 11:48 AM

I was always taught that Alto was a male alto, Contralto female. Same pitch.

bflat

Oct 25 2007, 12:17 PM

QUOTE(singerpianist @ Oct 25 2007, 12:15 PM)

I got a question in a grade 5 paper (practise paper) which said "name a standard orchestral percussion instrument whic has a definite pitch" (or something)

What instruments could I have chosen here? I think I ended up writing a glokenspiel down....

I came across this one too. Think you would get the marks for that. It means a percussion instrument where it's easy to tell the notes it's playing; so xylophone is probably a good choice. Something with indefnite pitch would be cymbal, for example. Wikipedia is your friend

There always seems to be a 'left field' question on the 5 paper; something just a bit out of the ordinary. I'm tempted to scan the last few years of papers to be prepared for that!

Cyrilla

Oct 25 2007, 01:10 PM

Any primary music teacher will tell you the difference between 'pitched percussion' and 'unpitched percussion'...

singerpianist

Oct 26 2007, 09:01 AM

QUOTE(bflat @ Oct 25 2007, 01:17 PM)

QUOTE(singerpianist @ Oct 25 2007, 12:15 PM)

I got a question in a grade 5 paper (practise paper) which said "name a standard orchestral percussion instrument whic has a definite pitch" (or something)

What instruments could I have chosen here? I think I ended up writing a glokenspiel down....

I came across this one too. Think you would get the marks for that. It means a percussion instrument where it's easy to tell the notes it's playing; so xylophone is probably a good choice. Something with indefnite pitch would be cymbal, for example. Wikipedia is your friend

There always seems to be a 'left field' question on the 5 paper; something just a bit out of the ordinary. I'm tempted to scan the last few years of papers to be prepared for that!

Okay thanks for your reply! Yes I'm going through lots of past papers, and have come across a couple of those 'left field' questions and have then asked on here or looked on the internet etc!

Thanks again,

Laura

path-beeth

Oct 27 2007, 04:31 PM

Dear all...

thanks a lot for all your answers.. but if the brass or woodwind families can play double notes....what is the answer for question in theory paper 2003 A in page 5 (iii) Give a reason why no solo member of the standard orchestral brass or woodwind families could not play the right hand part of bar 4..i'm very confuse

who is the solo trombone? bass trombone or tenor trombone?

and if there is a question about the highest or the lowest of the orchestral families should we consider the instrument from the additonal and occasionally list (in Orchestral Instrument book by Roy Wilkinson)? (ex the highest sounding in woodwind families is piccolo not flute) ?

thank you so much

Robodoc

Oct 27 2007, 06:08 PM

QUOTE(Cyrilla @ Oct 25 2007, 02:10 PM)

Any primary music teacher will tell you the difference between 'pitched percussion' and 'unpitched percussion'...

Pitched is when it is thrown (overarm or underarm), unpitched is when it is sent with a spinning action like a frisbee, mostly a technique associated with cymbals, gongs etc. . . . Or maybe not!!

sbhoa

Oct 27 2007, 06:43 PM

QUOTE(path-beeth @ Oct 27 2007, 05:31 PM)

Dear all...

thanks a lot for all your answers.. but if the brass or woodwind families can play double notes....what is the answer for question in theory paper 2003 A in page 5 (iii) Give a reason why no solo member of the standard orchestral brass or woodwind families could not play the right hand part of bar 4..i'm very confuse

who is the solo trombone? bass trombone or tenor trombone?

and if there is a question about the highest or the lowest of the orchestral families should we consider the instrument from the additonal and occasionally list (in Orchestral Instrument book by Roy Wilkinson)? (ex the highest sounding in woodwind families is piccolo not flute) ?

thank you so much

Playing more than one note at a time on brass or woodwind is a special technique thing which is not relevant for questions at this level.

Highest woodwind is flute but I have read that someone asked and was told that piccolo would be accepted at this level. Piccolo is usually played when needed by one of the flute section.

andante_in_c

Oct 27 2007, 07:14 PM

QUOTE(sbhoa @ Oct 27 2007, 07:43 PM)

Piccolo is usually played when needed by one of the flute section.

Not strictly true: all orchestras (apart from the early type) have a dedicated piccolo player, and most 19th and 20th century repertoire calls for at least one piccolo.

sbhoa

Oct 27 2007, 07:42 PM

QUOTE(andante_in_c @ Oct 27 2007, 08:14 PM)

QUOTE(sbhoa @ Oct 27 2007, 07:43 PM)

Piccolo is usually played when needed by one of the flute section.

Not strictly true: all orchestras (apart from the early type) have a dedicated piccolo player, and most 19th and 20th century repertoire calls for at least one piccolo.

Thanks for that. It's my something new for today.

DomTre

Oct 27 2007, 08:26 PM

Also, I think in the voices list, you missed out baritone - between bass and tenor.

I sing baritone

sarah123

Oct 27 2007, 08:38 PM

QUOTE(path-beeth @ Oct 27 2007, 05:31 PM)

thanks a lot for all your answers.. but if the brass or woodwind families can play double notes....what is the answer for question in theory paper 2003 A in page 5 (iii) Give a reason why no solo member of the standard orchestral brass or woodwind families could not play the right hand part of bar 4..i'm very confuse

They can only play certain notes together, so it may be that they chose the question carefully, so that it wasn't a possible multiphonic - a fourth or something (aren't multiphonics usually octaves and fifths), to make sure that what they were asking wasn't actually wrong. Although you're not expected to know that woodwind instruments can play 'chords'. Sorry if that made no sense...

Cyrilla

Oct 27 2007, 09:42 PM

QUOTE(Robodoc @ Oct 27 2007, 07:08 PM)

QUOTE(Cyrilla @ Oct 25 2007, 02:10 PM)

Any primary music teacher will tell you the difference between 'pitched percussion' and 'unpitched percussion'...

Pitched is when it is thrown (overarm or underarm), unpitched is when it is sent with a spinning action like a frisbee, mostly a technique associated with cymbals, gongs etc. . . . Or maybe not!!