I have a new Y7 viola pupil. She was learning for about 3 years in primary school and turns up with a massive viola lent to her by her previous teacher. Her hands are tiny and she can barely reach any of the notes. She holds her hand in the 'frying pan position' with her fingers stretching round the neck like little claws - quite possibly the worst left hand I have ever seen.

I asked her about it and she told me her last teacher recommended this posture as the viola was so heavy so she needed to hold it up with the palm of her hand!!!

I rooted around in the school cupboard to day and found a 4/4 but much smaller viola with only two strings and no bridge and swapped the bridge and strings around from the other (massive) viola so now she has something she can actually practise on.

Do any teachers here who teach viola have any views on the subject of viola/hand size?

I was frankly horrified that this teacher had expected this girl to play something so obviously too big for her.

Some of my students with small hands have violins tuned as violas so they can learn to play the viola when they are 7 or 8. There's no way they could play a full size viola at that age and while it's not ideal in terms of tone it's better than nothing!

Sounds like former teacher had not a clue

Was thinking that myself, Sarah.

I never have worked out why some teachers like to have children on the biggest instrument they can possibly reach. I wonder if it's a hangover from a time when small instruments were not readily available or not very good?

Yes, I agree about the previous teacher being clueless! What was she trying to do to the poor child? I also agree that a violin sized instrument, or re-strung violin would be much better than struggling with an adult sized instrument, esp given that there really is no such thing as a 4/4 viola. As adults have to be measured for a correct sized instrument, how much more so children!

Do you mean string up a violin with viola strings??? That could be a good idea.

I once had a pupil who thought they had a full-sized violin but one day when they peered in at the label, realised it was a 3/4 sized viola!

I agree - it's nuts to put students on instruments that are too big for them - never mind the sound, you've got to be able to play the thing without wrecking your hand, surely. Well not never mind the sound - get the best smaller-sized instrument you can afford, obviously. For the record I think a reconditioned Stentor 2 with a set of Dominant strings on can be a perfectly good instrument for a few years. Primaveras are better but you can't get them any more, sadly. I haven't seen small Gligas, Elida!

But going back to too-big instruments - I did once see a picture of Yehudi Menuhin aged about 9 playing a violin that looked much too big for him, but perhaps he had big hamds and long fingers?

Anyone?

Yes. Quite a lot of my students have done this over the years.

Yes you can! They are readily available.

Liz

I think it's really the only thing to do with a child learning viola. After all, the same principle is followed with violin and cello with the 'fractional' sizes, so there's no way that viola should be different. It would only serve to furhter put people off an already less popular instrument.

Interesting concept given that there's really no such thing! Violas don't come in 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4 etc, they just come in measurements. True though that most blokes seem to go for 16" and most ladies for 15.5" (which is what mine is, but I've also had a go on a 16" and it was fine for me too, even though I'm no great size), but there's no such thing as a 'full size' or 4/4 viola. That's my understanding anyway and I reserve the right to be talking rot!!!!!!

you're not talking rot of course - as if! but there are makers who label violas in sizes like that. the Beare-Tertis model is one such. They mesure up as follows: 4/4 size = 15.5 inches, 3/4 size = 14.75 inches, 1/2 size = 14 inches, 1/4 size = 13.25 inches, 1/8 size = 12.5 inches

Which makes no sense at all of course since you then have a 1/8 size viola being larger than a 1/2 size violin.

Liz

Well this is weird because I remember looking into this viola with the child and seeing the numbers 3/4.

???

Hmmm, yet another question of size. Ironic that I should have posted a similar topic about tiny cellists with enormous cellos.

Yes, whatever the string instrument, I am very much in favour of taking hand size of the player into account. Just because someone is X age and/or X height, doesn't automatically put them into a particular string instrument size category. Arm length and hand size often dictates the true size of instrument and especially so if they don't have very flexible hands or fingers.

I can cope with a full-sized violin, providing the neck is fairly thin, but even then, some of them can just be a bit TOO wide across the upper bouts for comfort. Having small hands I choose to play a small full-sized violin. It's not quite as tiny as a 7/8ths, but certainly makes reaching the high positions far easier and more secure.

Viola wise, I play a 15" instrument. I did try a 15.5", but I'm not a long-armed person and it did make my back a bit sore if I played it for any length of time.

Cello - when I was playing - 30" back (absolute maximum, or I looked dwarfed behind it), lower bout width (for comfort!) not too wide. String playing length was the most important aspect.

Despite having small hands, the one thing I'm really grateful for is flexible fingers.

[quote name='AmandaL' date='Oct 7 2007, 09:06 PM' post='606889']
[quote name='Violinia' post='605451' date='Oct 5 2007, 07:16 PM']
I can cope with a full-sized violin, providing the neck is fairly thin, but even then, some of them can just be a bit TOO wide across the upper bouts for comfort. Having small hands I choose to play a small full-sized violin. It's not quite as tiny as a 7/8ths, but certainly makes reaching the high positions far easier and more secure.

[/quote]

I'm trying out a violin at the moment which is a full-size but has narrow bouts both top and bottom. It's definitely not a 7/8 because I play one of those. Strangely for having a smaller 'volume' inside it still produces a full and rounded sound. It was made in the forties by an English maker Erik Holland.

Anyone come across any unusual sizes like this? It's a violin though, not a viola

When I was at school, I actually wanted to play the viola rather than the violin but my school didn'y have any violas. My teacher said viola strings on the violin will damage it cos they're thicker and it'll sound ######. He must have been wrong! Oh well, I guess it's a good thing that I learnt the violin instead of the viola when I was little. Now that I'm an adult, I can just about cope with a 4/4 violin cos I have small hands.

It was a shame that schools don't really encourage students to learn the viola. Nowadays music education in schools seems worse (or is it just me who thinks that?), my cousins who are about 10 years younger than me don't even have the opportunity to learn an instrument at school.