Why can't I get to grips with third position!

Let me try and make my 'position' clear
I am practising my shifts and they are making slow but steady progress, my problem is that I just can't read music in third position. Here's an example of what I mean .....

When I see G in first position, I know that it's third finger on the D string, but then obviously when you move up to third position its first finger on D in third position ..... but when I see a G in the music I think third finger ....... Am I making any sense to anyone and can anybody help me to work out how I can teach myself to know the correct fingering in third position!!!!!!

My pieces currently have the finger numbers written all over them, but I know that I can't rely on this method for ever!!!!

HELP!

I'm not a string player but does reading the music by interval work on strings as it does on piano?
This way you know where your finger goes for the next note because of how far it is from the note you are playing if that makes sense.

has you teacher given you any help with ways to learn this?

The only way is to do more playing in 3rd position.

"A Tuneful Introduction to Third Position" by Neil Mackay might be a helpful book. It is mostly about playing in 3rd position rather than shifting

I would also recommend A tuneful introduction. It has been around for eons but I still go back to it for my pupils. It somehow seems to achieve better results than the more modern 3rd position books. It is very thorough and if you use it all the way theough you have it cracked! Good luck.
Kim

Hi!!
Third position is really tricky at first!
Try to train yourself to think of only the note and its positioning on the string and not the finger that goes with it. E.g. think "G on dstring" not "G on dstring third finger" or "G on dstring first finger in 3rd position". That way you know where the note is and you could put ANY finger on it, this helps when later on doing second position/fourth position etc.

Try to play some easy pieces you already know in third position (if possible!), so that you can get used to it with tunes that you already know.

Unfortunatly, the only way to learn is practise practise practise, it will come in time . There are also lots of books out there that help.

Good luck, hope some of this is useful.
x

That's roughly where I am just now - I'm still writing in fingerings but I'm trying to 'recognise' when the A on the E string, or the G on the Dstring are actually a shift up to third position. I did it a few weeks ago and read smoothly into the shift and managed to move my fingers too although my intonation is still not quite accurate. I'm starting to use the Neil Mackay book.

In my experience (and IMHO) it takes time and practice. Sounds like you're like me and rushing to get to the point of reading the 'positions' fluently. Don't beat yourself up - just keep chipping away at it slowly and it will become second nature in time. At least that's how it feels to me

Looks like we're all in the same boat more or less!

Think how long it took you to be comfortable in 1st position - it's second nature now but it took me months to get the fingering let alone the correct pitch. I see it much the same way with third position. The more you play, the more comfortable (hopefully!) it will feel. The semitones are closer the higher up you go, so that also needs to be factored into the equation - hence my multiple facial contortions when I play....

My teacher taught me to remember it by the fact that fingers 1 and 3 swap, and 2 and 4 swap. For example, the G which was a 3rd finger on D, it becomes a 1st finger when in 3rd position.

Does that make any sense?

Read this with interest. It's normally 2nd position and 4th position, and above that, which give the most problems.

I'm familar with the 3rd position, my shifting and intonation isn't 100% perfect but it's getting there. When I first started learning I got confused as well with the fingerings, I had to stop and think which finger I should put down. I played lots of easy tunes I knew and eventually I got the hang of it and can do it "naturally". I hated the 3rd position on the E string cos of the high notes, I could never tell if it was in tune! I thought I'll never master it. But with lots of practice, I'm confident with the high C and D notes, I can tell if it sounds wrong. It took me arond 3 months to get my head around the 3rd position and shifting. I also used the Neil Mackay book.

I'm currently teaching myself the 2nd position, now I'm getting confused again! For some reason. I find the 4th position easier to shift and learn than the 3nd and 2nd position. Lol, I make a terrible noise when I'm practicing shifting, my poor neighbours! My teacher said to keep shifting up and down, sliding on the notes so that you learn the distance and it'll help you remember the notes. i.e. do B slide to 3rd position G and up again, C slide to 3rd position E etc.

By the way, I use a guitar tuner to check my intonation. I'm so tempted to get my tutor to play a high note and check it on my tuner to see if she really does play it exactly on the note or if it's slightly flat or sharp!

The first piece in which I ever had to play in 3rd position was Brahm's Lullabye, from the grade 3 syllabus a few years a go. I hated it with a passion and relied completely on playing by ear. I just couldn't make myself see the connection between the open strings becoming 2nd fingers (which is how I explain it now, along with 3rd fingers becoming 1sts.).

I wish I could be of more use to you, but what I actually found was that the more sight-reading I did which had suggested shifts into 3rd position, the more my fingers knew where they were going, until eventually I stopped having to think about which fingers to use. I'd say it took me about 2 years to get to that stage, but that said, I didn't exactly practice excesively during that period .

As for 2nd and 4th position, I think I have a slight issue with positions in even numbers! I'm fine with 5th and getting there with 7th, but 2nd and 4th can still cause me to look confused on occasion.

7th position!

Exactly HOW many positions are there?

Around about 15 - 18 depending on which finger you use to play the highest note at the top of the fingerboard.

On violin the highest note I can get right at the top of my fingerboard is A three octaves above the open A string. I could probably squeeze in another one or two notes if I really tried though as the notes all get very close together at the top of the fingerboard.

The highest position, practically speaking, is therefore about fourteenth or fifteenth position, but after about 7th or 8th position I don't really think about which position I am in, I just think in terms of intervals between notes.

Gulp! I hope that only about four of those are normally used?

And how do you get notes so high not to sound piercing?

^ good advice


2nd and 4th do my head in

I use positions up to about 8th or 9th every time I practice. I just got used to them after a while.


A decent violin helps a lot, as does plenty of practice, but I don't really like the high notes on a violin, so I mostly play viola.


Same here, but it gets easier the more I play in 2nd and 4th positions. I'm just not quite so quick at reading anything written in those positions.

Thirding this advice...and that several notes can exist on more than one string!!

There's a very good book of traditional gaelic and scottish airs, published by Tigh na Teud on the Isle of Skye, which is for third position, you'll know loads of the tunes, and if you just force yourself to play only in 3 rd position, whatever you are playing , it'll come in no time.

I've been trying to look at it this way as well - a bit like shifting your hand position on the piano - but unlike piano there is no point of reference and until I get familiar with 'independent fingers' I think this will be tricky...

People are actually listening to my advice..
I must go and talk to myself for a bit, i'm obviously become too sane. Hehee!!

x

I'm teaching third position to an adult student at the moment and she was horrified at first that she would have to learn all these different fingerings. She got quite low about it at first but after about 4-6 weeks I suddenly noticed she's starting to play much more happily and instinctively in third position.

We talked about it in her last lesson and she admitted it was just a matter of time and practice; now when she looks at, say, an F natural in third position, she just 'knows' she needs to use her third finger - it's down to muscle and visual memory.

I use a fantastic book by Neil McKay; she's working through the pieces one by one and applying what she's learning to her Grade 3 pieces, and can now play Mio Babbino Caro beautifully in third position all the way through - all praise to Neil McKay I say!

To anybody approaching third position for the first time, I would say: don't just try and tackle it in the context of one or two pieces, but really go at it systematically, learning every single possible way of shifting from first to third position, and the same thing in reverse (third position back to first).

When you're learning the 2-octave D major scale, learn it this way:

2 1-1 (- = slide)

Do a slow slide first
then a quick slide
then a quick slide with your finger just skimming the string - and hey presto! A neat shift.

And always make sure you take your thumb with you, shifting both up and down.

But as always - practice makes perfect.

Another bit of advice: if you're going to do a lot of playing in very high positions, it helps to have a lower bridge.

Don't worry
Ihave been in your position Fizzynoodlepot!!!!!!

I had to pratice it ages before I got to grips with it, it is quite difficult to begin with but it does get easier.
Pratice makes perfect!!!

If you have a quick scan on the internet for some online Masterclasses(on video) these help too.

Good Luck

Dstring

I don't understand this fingering - when I'm playing Dmaj and am on the A string I play 1 2 3 then slide up with 1... is that wrong?

Also, the 'new' fiddle I'm trying out seems to be easier to play in third position.. my hand just seems to 'glide' there so much more easily... could it be the violin itself????

I do for D maj (on the A string) 0,1,2,1,2,3,4 going up - slide C#(2) to D (1) if that makes sense?!

Thanks for your advice Violinia - my teacher says the same. It's all down to muscle memory to get the shift and after a while it just 'clicks'. And practice does make the fingering/notes get easier.

doh .. yes I meant 0 1 2.. then 1 2 3 4 etc

Happens to the best of us, Lottie - I thought that was what you meant....

I think what Violinia is explaining is that the correct technique for shifting is to slide a finger from or to a "guide note". In the case of D maj scale the shift is from C# 2nd finger to D 1st finger but you should learn to place the first finger on the string in the starting position then slide it to the destination. The first step is C# B (guide note) then glissando to D. The glissando then becomes faster and then with the finger just skimming the string (think lift-slide-drop). This, combined with reducing the bow pressure on the string for the split second of the shift, makes the slide inaudible or nearly, but it should be there. It is tempting when starting to shift to take a kind of leap into the unknown every time but this should be avoided.

I mentioned Mackay's "Tuneful introduction..." early in the thread but he did another book called "Position Changing for Violin" which is less about playing in 3rd position and more about shifting up and down from 1st to third. It has excercises and practise tunes for shifting up and down to and from almost any combination of fingers and is well worth looking at.

I agree with Amanda on the 2nd position. I once asked my teacher why he taught me 1st position then 3rd without 2nd. He told me the 2nd position is a very awkward shift. Now that I am playing a piece which has quite alot of 2nd position, I understand why. I am so much more comfortable with the 3rd position. Thing is, he gave me quite alot of exercises on the 3rd position but nothing on the 2nd and he expects me to play a piece in that?

Anyway, enough ranting. It's alot alot of practice, listening and getting used to. Shifting is one of the reasons why I am actively trying to discourage a friend to learn to read notes by "1st finger on the A string is a B, 3rd finger on the D string is G." I told him, "If you learn it that way, next time when you come to shifting, it's going to be a total nightmare for him to get his head around because...for example. B on the A string is 1st finger in 1st pos. However, B is also 5th position on the D string and 10th (I think?) position on the G string and they're ALL THE SAME note. Hehe."

I do have a recommendation for those who are trying to learn the 3rd position now. Play scales and concentrate on your shifts. Play A, B, C# then D in 1st pos. Then do the same thing except after C#, shift! =) Do the same for all 4 strings. The purpose of playing it in 1st position first is so that your brain has a reference sound to listen out for. I find it helps even for 2nd position.

I know that in years to come if I'm still playing (and I have every intention to keep playing) this is all going to seem so simple to look back on....


.... but right now it all feels so COMPLICATED!!!

- doesn't everything, when you first try it?

Keep plugging away, it will become more comfortable/natural to you!

*Remembers first violin lesson - "You hold your violin like this..... "

I had to hold it like a banjo for the first fortnight! I wasn't even allowed to take the bow out from it's case .

We did that too

And LT - EXACTLY!

You're right - remember trying to keep the bow in that TINY bit on the strings between the bridge and the fingerboard...







.....







mind you, I still sometimes have difficulty doing that (when I'm not concentrating )

I absolutely know what you mean! After 2 years of playing, I'm still not holding my bow properly I don't think I'll ever be "perfect".