All these topics about children who are over reliant on finger numbers...

My daughter has been learning the piano for a year and is one of those lucky children for whom the penny seemed to drop about reading music straight away (at least in five finger positions). She has never played with finger numbers until today when she had her first lesson with a new teacher. The teacher has given her a new piece to learn for next week on which she has written every single finger number (including the same number twice, or three times when the same note is repeated). My daughter came out of her lesson fuming, complaining that she wasn't an idiot and that her teacher had defaced her book. By the time we got home she had calmed down a bit and when she showed her book to her father said "just as well she writes so badly I can't actually read what she's written."

*groan*

Oh dear

You could try just rubbing them out and getting your daughter to say that she'd 'rather try without them'. Or is that a cop-out to avoid saying 'this is ludicrous'?

Why did your daughter change teachers, by the way? Was it done by the school or was it your choice?

Unfortunately, although the teacher wrote in pencil, she pressed really hard and I can't rub them out. I do intend to say next week that my daughter usually plays without them.


My daughter changing teachers is not my choice at all. She learns through the local music school. Last year the teacher she had been assigned to was on maternity leave so my daughter had a replacement teacher who was wonderful and I really wish my daughter could have continued with her. This year the "proper" teacher has come back to 80% of her job. The replacement teacher, who wasn't from this area, has (understandably) found a full-time job else where. The head of the music school decided to give all the "proper" teacher's beginners to another temporary teacher.

I was already annoyed about the change in teachers for two reasons. First I met the "proper" teacher at the end of last term and we discussed at some length my daughter's selective mutism and my daughter had already met her and so would not have been as anxious before her first lesson as she was last night. Second, the replacement teacher only has evening slots which are far from ideal for primary school children when they have been at school 8.30 to 4.30 and have homework to do. (Usually in France the younger children have lessons on Wednesday afternoons or Saturday mornings).

On the positive side, my daughter did say when she came out that the lesson was too short so I am taking that to mean that she enjoyed it and am keeping my fingers crossed that things will settle down after a few weeks and at least she still has a lesson in a room with a grand piano. (One of her gripes is that we only have an upright at home).

Quelle horreur! Could you buy some Tippex (or its French equivalent?) and go over it all?
I too would see it as defacing the book. For this reason,I try very hard not to write on my students' music at all - rather, when necessary, I hand even the youngest a pencil, and get them to write in a way that makes sense to them. (Mainly phrasing, articulation etc)
Hope you manage to get this sorted toute suite

Yes, definitely scribble over, tippex, burn off, whatever it takes!

I would definitely go & talk to the teacher about it, rather than try to remove the writing, which might make her feel you're criticising her - not a good way to start. But she does need to know that your daughter was upset by it & doesn't need it.

I tend to write in pupils' books as necessary & I also have quite a lot of things written in my own music. I don't see it as defacing, more as music that has been thoroughly worked on. I don't ever write fingering as an aid to note-reading, however, but as a reminder of a suitable fingering for a passage which has caused difficulty.

Me too...

Just a thought, but when I have a new pupil who has had a previous teacher, I take great care to make everything especially easy in the first lesson. It can be very unsettling to some students to change teachers and you want them to retain their confidence. Is it possible that this teacher is just taking particular care to ensure that the student understands exactly what she is doing for the first week or so?

I also just had a thought...
'if I was a teacher' (if, then maybe I'd be different if I was one, who knows), I would certainly always ask if the pupil minds me writing on their book, if this teacher did ask if she could write finger numbers on the book, the child would have told her 'No thank you, I don't need finger numbers, I know them already', maybe not, some children are shy, but certainly this way at least the child was given a chance?

If you're planning on staying with this teacher, I would think twice before erasing the fingerings she wrote. Teachers all have their own ways of doing things, and will usually believe theirs is the only way. Maybe have a word that she's not accustomed to so much being written in her books. I think that writing out numbers is a good thing if it's done in parts of the piece where it's helpful . My daughter has also started with a new teacher, and for the first time with any of her teachers, part of her homework is to write out her own fingerings for exercises in old sight reading books...one a day, and i really think this is a great idea, because ultimately the goal of teaching should be to help the pupil help themselves figure things out. I'd try and be diplomatic, knowing how easily offended people are, and in the interest of the pupil having a positive lesson rather than one where the teacher feels some kind of percieved grudge, that there's no confidence in her.

I agree with the idea of learning to write fingerings in for yourself but in my daughter's case it is a piece in five finger position C-G right hand and C-F left hand. There really is nothing to write in that's useful in this particular case.

My daughter is a selective mute and so doesn't talk and the teacher talks all the time anyway - even the chatty child before my daughter had a job getting a word in (we sat in on the last five minutes of her lesson). Because my daughter doesn't talk, I always feel that I am coming across as a pushy parent doing all the talking for her. It is all the more awkward as we have been told not to draw attention to the fact thatmy daughter doesn't talk in front of her - which is why I'd arranged to see the teacher I thought she would be having at the end of last year by myself.

i did'nt realise they were 'five finger' pieces, sorry should have noted that. I quite often miss the point. I have had one or two negative experiences with teachers over the last few years, i just know how touchy and sometimes woefully unproffesional some of them can be. At one particular rehearsal rooms that also provide tuition, where my daughter was taught for two years, i walked out after being spoken to in a manner that left me shaking my head in disbelief, my crime was politely complaining because the teacher was over 45 minutes late, and yet the teacher was actually on the premises all the while ! this same person also resented it when my daughter played her pieces well in student recitals. Since then i have been to another teacher, who asked me to get her music books ''while i was down that way'' and then did'nt like having to pay for them, and still owes me, also constantly cutting minutes of the half hour lesson which was £25. There is also sometimes a problem when teachers are aware the parent knows something about what their child is learning, that is my experience anyway. Many parents don't know a crotchet from a bass clef, and i'm sure that's the way some tutors prefer it.

IMO


. . . then you are mad! This teacher is using a technique almost universally condemned on these forums, has defaced your daughters book without asking, has not bothered to find out if your daughter can already read music and has upset your daughter in the first lesson by treating her as an idiot: This person is manifestly not the right teacher for your daughter, if anybody, so:

If you possibly can then get out now.

I think this is a rather harsh view of the situation. My daughter was indignant rather than upset by having finger numbers written in and she has said that next Thursday is too long to wait for her next lesson so it can't have been that bad. I think we'll just have to wait and see.

Hmmm, on the one hand, my apologies. On the other, this was a screaming first gut reaction to your post. If I'm wrong, all well and good. However, unless things change I would be very wary of going too long with this teacher. Let us know how it goes.

I can't change teachers because she is learning through a music school and the teacher is alloted. On the other hand, it shouldn't be for more than a year because the woman is replacing the teacher my daughter should have had who is on parental leave.

I shall just keep my fingers crossed.

As someone else said, if I were your daughter's teacher, I would have asked if she was used to having all the finger numbers written in for her before proceeding... If not, I wouldn't have done so.

Then again, even if she'd said yes, I'd more likely have started putting measures in place to wean her off them rather than oblige by writing them all in

They are useful, but everything in moderation, I think.

I use mini post-it-notes on pupils books/scores quite a lot (in flourescent colours so they can't be ignored!). When they come in with a nice shiny new book I don't like to spoil it too much

While I do see your point - I look with affection on the music that was written on by my music teacher in 1962, almost like a form of memoir; it is surprising how powerful handwriting is recreating the time, the place and the person. Although my current teacher asked first before writing and is relatively sparing I like the feeling of joint effort. (Although when he inserts the sharps and flats that I forgot to play, irritate me, it does mean that once he has made the point - I never forget them thereafter!).

Then again, even if she'd said yes, I'd more likely have started putting measures in place to wean her off them rather than oblige by writing them all in

agreed.

No offence, I think you're all being a bit touchy! All the teachers I've had have liberally written on my music, not only fingerings but underlinings, circlings, exclamation marks and all sorts. It's all very well saying they're only five finger positions, but wait until she's doing Bach! The point I'm trying to make is that one of the foundation stones of a good piano technique is fingering, and for some people it's not always completely intuitive. Therefore getting into the habit of marking the fingering is, in my opinion, a good one.

Edward

Not when learning Edwardo.

You can read music, having some finger numbers, and always playing consistently is the correct thing to do. Putting circles on music, and things like that which are not explicite enough, fine. When you were learning, I assume that you didn't have all the numbers marked so learned the notes which is why now if you choose to mark in all the numbers, this is fine, you can read the music and aren't relying soley on the numbers.

The thing you'll find if you teach, is that finger numbers will be used exclusively by the child if all are written in. Correct fingering, very important, but if using the correct 5 finger position it will be used anyway in this example.

I tend to agree with Edwardo: my teacher has always written on my music (lightly in pencil) alll manner of things that she feels will help me to play better and this sometimes includes one or two fingering suggestions. I must say (in my ignorance) that I thought that this was an accepted method of teaching music. It certainly has never caused me any offence - I know that she is just trying to help me.

The original post was talking about putting in unnecessary finger numbers.
For someone still playing pieces in 5 finger positions there are very few necessary finger numbers.
Maybe the starting notes, a note making an interval of more than a 3rd MIGHT be needed by some and sometimes the first note on the second line if the piece runs to more than one line.

Also it seems that the teacher in question put in the finger numbers BEFORE finding out whether the child was able to manage without or not. Seems to me it might have been a better idea to have the child play first then decide whether any little reminders needed LIGHTLY pencilling in the same as you would do for a more advanced student.

with sbhoa. Also bear in mind that the finger numbers were written even on repeated notes, and that the child was not consulted as to whether she needed them at all.

Points taken.

My teachers have always written on music. I don't ever remember it being an issue as such, but I can understand why it might grate with some if overdone.

Just a thought for the future, and assuming that you're buying the music and not the teacher, why not provide photocopies for the lesson - the teacher has something to mark which your daughter can either use of just make reference to, and the original stays pristine. If you have to stay with this teacher for the foreseeable then perhaps best to look for a workable compromise for all.

You're never going to believe this...

After my daughter's lesson today I mentioned that my daughter would rather she didn't write every single fingering in to which her teacher replied that fingering was so important when learning the piano that for a would-be pianist it was more important to learn to read finger numbers than to learn to read the notes on the stave.

OOOPS!

Oh dear,

How do her pupils cope when they progress from a 5 finger position?

How long do you have to put up with this teacher, my gut reaction is 'private lessons'

Well, a week ago I agreed with you that this was a bit harsh [although "Run, run while you still can!" was my instinctive reaction!].

However now I would probably say: If you possibly can then get out now.
and "Run! Run while you still can!"



But seriously...that teacher's response is pretty much the opposite of true...
Fingering is important and sometimes underestimated, but reading the notes is far more important, vital even! I have some serious doubt about this technique.

There's a difference between teaching/learning good fingering habits and having all (or too many) fingerings written on the music.

a sentence with head and brick wall comes to mind ....

sympathies - I don't know what to say.

But notes are always there, finger numbers won't! How crazy!!

She said that only by learning to read finger numbers could you progress from a 5 finger position.

Fortunately my daughter can already read the notes she is using at the moment and, more importantly, has grasped the idea that if you miss out a note on the stave you miss out a note on the keyboard.

Even more fortunately, she can't read the teacher's writing


This teacher will be for the academic year. There are no private teachers where we live so that is not an option. In any case my daughter is enjoying the lessons so I think I will just have to try and be a completely disinterested parent and not ask any questions.

Love it!



I find this soooo hard, very best of luck

OMG!!!!!

This almost defies comment. It's almost as bad as saying that it's more important to know how to spell oxygen than to breathe. After due consideration I think I stand by my original gut reaction.

I find myself wondering if your daughters musical progress will be damaged more in the long term by having no teacher for a year or by having a bad teacher for a year. I suspect no teacher is the better option.

I did have a child once who was absolutely determined to use 123 for CEG when in a basic five-finger hand position. She just didn't see the point in using 4 and 5 when those other three fingers were stronger, no matter how much I rabbitted on. But I take it your daughter is not like this? Assuming she's not, it might be interesting to ask the teacher how she gets beyond this stage once she's content that good fingering habits are established. Does the child have to go back to the drawing board? What is the highest grade/level that she has taught others to form beginner stages, and how do they fare in sight-reading? You could ask all this as if genuinely interested, in order not to appear too critical.

My daughter is not like your pupil. She uses all five fingers in both hands; she has also grasped the idea of just moving your whole hand up if you want five different notes (she played a couple of pieces with G to D in the left hand) and stretching the second finger a little if you want six notes (ie C,E,G,A,B in the right hand). She hasn't yet been asked to do anything more than this in her lessons.


She talks an awful lot and doesn't really listen so I think I will refrain from asking her anything else. My daughter had taken the tutor book that her teacher had asked her to buy to this lesson for the first time and at the end of the lesson the teacher said to me "Now that she's got the proper book, we started using the bass clef today." I pointed out that in every lesson (this was her third) my daughter has played her a piece using both hands (from More Tunes for Ten Fingers) and has therefore been using the bass clef, and that she herself had set my daughter two of these pieces. To which she said yes but she hadn't been doing it from the proper book. It was at this point that I said she would rather not have all the finger numbers written in and then wished I hadn't!

Dulciana always says the wisest things.

Apart from being a nice way to ask she might have a really good method that none of us know about. I'm skeptical still.

I'm almost speechless...


Just as well by the sounds of it!

Cheque's in the post.

She is pretty wise, isn't she?


























(How much do I get? )

My cheque book's run out!

Rats!!!

Realy, I never had ALL the notes written in my score. And I didn't even take notice of fingering for quite a while, becuase I was soo confuzed on reading the notes.... growing out of the 5 finger position is something I don't remember. It happened very early on I think... All the worse for my note-reading then...

hello-i'm new here, old not v. good pianist with singing & fiddle playing daughter learning piano.
My daughter learnt violin (i know its not piano) suzuki method (passed Grade V distinction aged 11) & we have seen many suzuki learning pianists learning to play their very first pieces from memory by copying, & listening to the actual music with no notation to get bogged down by, resulting in one very happy little player! Would you agree that for a beginner helping them to play a real piece well, feel good about it & remove the over clinical analytical emphasis on reading finger numbers & notes on 2 staves. Piano as 1st instrument to learn can be really daunting - gently does it!!

I teach two brothers but their sister has a different teacher. They are all beginners using the same book. I nearly had a fit last week when the book arrived with all the finger numbers written in. As the boys are older, I'm trying to push them on further so that their sister is behind and her teacher can write in all the finger numbers they want without it 'benefitting' her brothers.