Son Viohazard has two violins home on appro. They are *so* different that it is hard to even think of them both as violins.

Neither have any obvious faults or way out problems, but Viohazard's teacher and the shop-owner recommend one, while Viohazard prefers the other.

The teacher's preference is for a violin made in 2001, which he describes as "so alive it's practically dripping blood" - and it is a bit raw, but very responsive to different bowing techniques. I would describe it as sounding a bit "tight".

Viohazard's preference is for a violin made in 2005, which sounds a little more like his current violin (strong low register). In fact, it absolutely booms at the lower end, the teacher described it as having a "viola-like" sound - but viola heck, it sounds like a double bass if you ask me! I think it sounds a bit thin (not rich) in the top register, but Viohazard thinks it's OK, and it certainly doesn't have whole dead areas like some violins he tried.

His teacher says he thinks either choice would be OK, but that the 2005 boomer may be all noise under the ear and not carry in a hall, and maybe is a rather thin sound. He says he thinks Viohazard will get on top of that violin, but it may take him more effort to get the sound he wants out of the 2001 red in tooth and claw number - but that the 2001 instrument has more potential and maybe better balance, though still a bit harsh in the lower register. The 2001 instrument is about 25% more expensive than the 2005 instrument, but some of that could be snob value.

Viohazard really likes the hollow booming sound of the 2005 instrument. However, I feel nervous about letting Viohazard go with his choice against his teacher's advice.

Is a violin loud in the lower register going to be a nuisance in an orchestra? Is a really loud lower register a fault? This instrument hasn't been played at all, apparently.

Conversely, is the slight (definitely not overwhelming) harshness in a 6 year old violin (2001) that has not been played (much? at all?) *really* going to open up and mellow out???

The man who made the 2001 violin is apparently very old - perhaps it is not one of his best pieces. The 2005 violin maker is about 50, and has a reputation for a sweet sound, but I didn't really get that impression from this instrument.

These are a trade-up from the weirdly-put-together violin he has now, which his teacher just won't let him play any longer. Of necessity, we have to buy it from the same guy who sold us this thing in the first place, which does nothing for my confidence - I've heard that it's better to have a good lower register and a less good upper register than the other way round...but would it really be OK

I'd really appreciate advice on violins that boom!

Different strings might make a difference. Having just taken son no 1 for a string trial on his cello I was amazed at the difference different strings made to the sound.Perhaps someone like AmandaL would have a better idea. I do know that ultimatly as your son will play the instrument it should be the one that he likes. Can he try them in different setting to see if that makes a difference. Is he restricted to choosing from 2 violins or could he try some more so that he has more to compare them with.

A couple of questions - are you saying you are tied in to the one seller, presumably because of trade-in policy? If not (if I may be so bold) what is your price range? And what do you mean by "booming" - do you just mean he wants it as loud as possible? Some of the inbalance could be changed by set up and strings.

I'd be strongly inclined to go with the player's preference - after all, he is the one who is going to have to play it!

Liz

Would you be able to record your son playing both fiddles so he can compare how they sound from a listener's point of view?

Though on the whole I'd agree with Liz, your son is the one who'll have the instrument directly under his ear so he needs to like how it sounds!!

StringMum, yes, it's possible strings may make a difference - I'd need to check properly, but I think that it currently has something funny like Piranitos on it...might be even louder with Dominants!

Liz, I don't mean that Viohazard wants it to boom (though he does seem to like power in the lower end!) - but the lower register is not only powerful, it has a sort of loud, hollow ring to it. To my mind, when he plays a (broken) chord, the G string is in danger of drowning everything out. I don't think I've ever heard a violin *quite* like it (not a bad sound, just remarkable!).

The teacher thinks that this would be an acceptable instrument, though he prefers the other (but also says that neither would be his personal choice). He and the shop-owner both say that a raw young instrument would be good to grow into and would encourage Viohazard to hunt around for his own sound. I'm willing to let him buy the instrument he wants, BUT I'm afraid of being sold another instrument so weird that it's useless as a trade-in in future. And of course, at these prices, we can't just buy him a new one next year! I'm afraid that Viohazard is a little scared of losing out if he hesitates - we've let several instruments slip while waiting for his teacher to find time to check them out.

We are pretty much tied to this seller, as I doubt we could get anybody else to accept the current instrument as a trade-in. Viohazard's teacher made a big fuss about the current violin, and the trade-in offered is therefore generous (though , unsurprisingly, the resulting discounted price seems to be roughly in line with retail for the two brands/makers). The more expensive instrument would cost us about GBP4,352. That barely gets us out of the "funky instrument" range in Japan. The cheaper instrument is therefore about GBP3,900, and costs about the same as a Roth #72 (from their top range).

We did go looking at a major seller in central Tokyo, and in this range were offered Roth, an "English" violin which was an extremely unremarkable German factory violin with the label of an English shop in it, and something that sounded as if it had a pillow stufed inside it - apart from the Roth, I thought they were overpriced for what they were. The teacher is strongly opposed to buying a Roth in terms of trade-in value, and the lack of sparkle in the top register (but that particular instrument was better balanced than Roths he's tried in the past).

In our travels, Viohazard tried several violins made by Stefano Trabucchi, Marcello Villa, and Edgar Russ. Very nice and balanced, but neatly out of our budget range, and the individual instruments he was offered didn't have the "wow" of the best instruments he has tried by those makers in the past. (He particularly liked Marcello Villa's violins in the past, and was disappointed that this one seemed to somehow shut down on the G string, though it had the Villa sparkle in spades on the other strings).

You're looking at a violin around £4000 and they've got it strung with Piranitos?????



Honestly this sounds like something that could be adjusted by a simple movement of the soundpost. Did you say this shop is actually run by a luthier rather than a dealer? To put it bluntly, it seems hard to believe that at £4000 this is as good as it gets



And with good reason, I should think - if what you are describing is what I am actually hearing, then it sounds as if the whole market over there is grossly overpriced and that this particular shop is worse than most. But then to be fair I may be imagining something worse than you are intending to describe.



If it's not asking too much, how much did you pay for the present violin and what is it?



At the risk of souding horribly cynical, I'm not exactly surprised. Retailers' profits have to come from somewhere and a grossly inflated price with the promise of a huge trade-in is a very good way of making sure a customer never goes anywhere else.

Liz

Sorry, not Piranitos, knew it was a Pirastro string but couldn't remember which one...red and black, so Obligato isn't it? In fact, Obligato is what I would have tried on this given the way it sounds.

The violin market here is distinctly odd, yes. Viohazard's previous violin cost about GBP 800-1000. It doesn't actually sound too bad, it's an unlabeled German factory violin, sounds very German ...but it has a strange neck which is both extremely (not just a bit) long and excessively tapered at the scroll end. So in first position, the strings are jammed up together, and from 3rd position up, the very long fingerboard means that the positions are out of whack and hard to reach.

At that price, there is very little around - you have to double that price to even get into the "funky lower-end handmade" area of violins that each have something a bit funny about them, so there's a kind of blank area from GBP1,000 to around GBP3,000. FYI Gliga Gama II instrument alone without case/bow set retails at about GBP1,000 less discount. Past GBP 4,000 to 5,000 you start seeing the names that you would find in any higher end violin shop worldwide.

The market is overpriced here, but MUCH less so than when we bought Viohazard's first full-size violin 4 years ago. Major dealer, instruments at GBP2,000 to 4,000.

I don't think the dealer we are looking at would normally have offered such a generous trade-in - I'm not sure he's quite admitted to the teacher that *he* is the one who put together Viohazard's current instrument!

I'm frankly tempted to order a handmade instrument directly from one of the makers he liked, and get it shipped to Japan in a Musafia case!

Sorry to join in here when I'm not an expert but when my teacher tried out my Dad's violin (estimated around £5000 although we've not had it valued yet) she said many instruments sound good in the lower registers and it's much harder to find one that keeps it's quality in the higher registers. She said many violins go very 'thin' up high.

To my totally untrained ear Dad's fiddle sounds loud and 'viola'-like but has such a 'song' quality that I find it hard to put down when I do have it in my jealous little paws. It sounds very mellow compared to my Gliga Gama although my Gama is very nice (but still very 'new').

Just wanted to say good luck in your search but I like the idea of recording yourself playing and listening back to it.

*probably doesn't know what she's talking about but just trying to be helpful*

That's better! They should smooth it out a bit so if it's still booming with those I dread to think what it would be like with Dominants!



Words fail me. viohazard is a very good young player if I recall correctly?


That's not so far from the retail price here when it's bought via the wholesaler route. It's just that there is a rather good direct source for Gligas in the UK (and another in the US of course).


I'd probably get booted from the forum if I expressed my thoughts on this matter .....


If you can do that then it would seem like a better solution. Not all makers will do this of course because they cut their own dealers' throats which helps no-one in the long run (we found this out the hard way with a certain woodwind seller, wonderful instruments but totally impossible to sell because the maker sold them himself)

Liz

Try to relax and take your time. A better instrument may be waiting just round the corner so try not to jump at something which is not quite right for fear of losing it.

Rather than recording the instruments would it be possible for somebody else to play them to him. To be honest when I record something myself the tone quality is always sufficiently different from the original that I wouldn't trust it to make a comparison (though others may make better recordings with better equipment etc). Could his teacher, or another good player play them to him without favouring one or the other?

If you are concerned about buying another "wacky" instrument which would be difficult to trade in in the future can I suggest you seriously consider breaking the ties you have to this luthier/dealer now at the cheaper level than buy in to his service higher up the scale. Better to take a hit at £800-£1000 than at £4000.

There are various things that can be done in setup, including bridge and soundpost positioning, combinations of strings etc which can influence the balance of sound across the pitch range. I would suggest you have the seller setup one of the violins to better produce the characteristics viohazard and the teacher want but if he can make and sell a violin with a neck which is too long and too narrow I'm not sure you can trust him.

Sorry not to be more help

My feelings exactly. To put it bluntly, from the description of the present violin, I'd think that with an honest description one would be lucky to sell it on ebay at £80 let alone £800. With violins price is not always related to build quality or tone quality, the premium on certain nationalities / certain periods is simply too high.

Liz

Earplugs, thanks for that advice, I do need to relax! I've come to HATE violin shopping in Japan! There is some pressure however, as Viohazard is using a violin borrowed off his teacher, and it's not really suitable for his Grade 8 exam next spring - the teacher had it heavily modified for playing very fast non-classical music on, with a very low action.

Lottie, thanks for your comments - the "boombox" violin that Viohazard likes is a bit thin on top too - he's working away at it seeing if he can get a sweeter or richer sound in the higher registers before he makes the final decision. It does sound much less unbalanced at home in a less echoey environment.

Liz, Viohazard is not the next great thing in world violin talent, sad to say! He's a moderately talented kid who enjoys music.

I also feel somewhat cautious about asking the seller to adjust the violin, given previous performance, and I have heard others express doubts about his workmanship in repairs and adjustments. However, to give him credit, I believe he thought he was doing Viohazard a service in selling him that instrument 4 years ago - it actually SOUNDS quite good, it is only the construction and playability that are at issue - he'd picked up that Viohazard liked the older violins with a more mature sound and "put together" that particular instrument by way of getting him a more mature sound at a reasonable price. (I can't help wondering if he had a reasonable German factory body, and just stuck a neck on it that he had no other use for??) It was our bad luck that Viohazard at that time played totally by ear and never looked to see where his fingers were on the fingerboard ... and our bad luck that Viohazard's then-teacher didn't check the instrument, and I don't recall that she ever played it herself after we bought it. Viohazard did pass his Grade 5 with a merit on that violin about a fortnight after we bought it, even though he was *supposed* to keep playing his old 3/4 Suzuki until after the exam!

One point: we were told that the slight harshness of the two new violins we have on appro is largely due to the sappiness of the wood. The only new violins that Viohazard has really loved in the past have been much more expensive, made by well-known makers who presumably use thoroughly aged wood - so he is not really familiar with the sound of a very green instrument. Even the teacher said that the slight harshness was mostly due to young wood. I'm not totally convinced - SHOULD I believe that this will magically resolve itself? I do trust the teacher's ear, he has a very acute sense of pitch and "colour", but he is also very young (from my point of view ) and may well overestimate Viohazard's ability to "whip it into shape". One disadvantage of buying elsewhere is that the teacher probably wouldn't be able to look over instruments Viohazard was interested in.

This is entirely true. in fact the problem most professional players have is finding an instrument that is even across all the strings, in all positions (within reason). If a violin is likely to have a weakness, it will be the top end on the E string, usually notes above top C or D. The sound simply dwindles into virtually nothing. Changing the strings, in this instance, doesn't usually make any real difference. Getting a luthier to move the soundpost around and seeing if this changes things is always worthwhile, and certainly a must before parting with any money to buy the violin.


Like most things, a violin is worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. In the case of a fine 18th century Italian viloin made by someone like Guarneri, this could easily be a six figure sum, providing of course the instrument does have a certificate issued by a reputable dealer, such as J&A Beare, or is at least known and authenticated by other means. At that level of the market, condition doesn't come into it - even if it needs £10,000 of restoration before it can be played.

Anything old and Italian will sell, even if it sounds dreadful and was made by someone unknown. However, condition will play a part with instruments like this. If the violin is on the market for £20,000 but needs £10,000 worth of work doing on it, then it's not viable to pay £20k for it.

One (final?) question: These two violins were made in 2001 and 2005. When people talk about a new violin "opening up", just what degree of roughness/rawness can be expected from a new instrument? and will it really "play in"?

Viohazard notices it, it's definitely there though not pronounced (obviously he rejected all the ones that either sounded like pillows or catfights), so the question is simply whether or not to believe that this isn acceptable part of a new instrument or not. My instinct says "not", teacher and shop-owner say that it is just initial roughness.

If we had no budget constraints, there are very new instruments which don't sound harsh at all, for GBP5,000 and up. So is that "just" because 40-50 year old wood was used, or do the cheaper instruments use wood from younger trees, that will never mature as well as old-growth timber? (Not to mention the makers' skill).



You're telling me!!! That is *the* problem - in the range we are looking at, every possible instrument has had a noticeably weak area.

Viohazard has been working on the high end of the "boombox" violin, and already it sounds a bit better, but I'll tell him to listen carefully to the area you mentioned. He says that after playing it some more, he thinks the "red in tooth and claw" violin is perhaps a better instrument, though a bit harsh, but he just can't get over the resonant lower register of the "boombox".

My experience is limited to a small number of brands, in one of which I regard myself as somewhat of an expert. Within that admittedly limited experience, I have found that a violin matures a great deal in the first few hours of playing, then after a couple of years it sounds like a completely different instrument (in Gliga terms, a Gems starts to sound like a Gama and a Gama starts to sound like something I would want to sell for four times the price if I could find that sound in a new workshop instrument). BUT the improvement is also dramatic if it is not played at all but simply left in storage where the climate is not controlled ie. it is subject to changes of temperature and humidity.

It seems I am not the only one who has noticed this. This page talks about it.

That being the case, I would expect these intruments to be sounding good already. if they had just been made yesterday it would be another matter.



At the risk of becoming a bore, pillows and catfights are not what I would expect to find in the £4000 price range!



I think you would be taking a gamble, let me put it that way.



I'd think it would have a lot more to do with who made it than with the age of the wood, but that said, I've never been in much of a position to investigate, the only maker I know that specifies the age of the wood is Jinyin and I've only investigated the lower models in their range (which were fine for the price)



Honestly I think that is something that he will just have to live with.



You could try experimenting with strings, though I am well aware that is not a cheap hobby!

Had you thought of taking a quick trip to the UK or the US? It might well work out cheaper .....

Liz

Violin-buying trip? If both of us went along, that would halve our budget! You don't think that a country that sells violins at big prices has ultra-cheap air tickets, now do you ?! (Although they are cheaper than they used to be).

I'm beginning to think that Viohazard's initial judgement was the right one - though still not quite ready to get my purse out. The cheaper violin (about GBP3,000 when I do the sums properly, as against GBP4,300 for the red one) stood up much better to detailed examination. It remains just a little rough in high position G and harmonics, but it still resonates in high positions better than the red violin, which simply seemed to "shut down" when I carefully observed Viohazard playing in the very highest positions on both the E and G strings.

That's enough to put this instrument out of the running I think - it was his teacher's recommendation, but Viohazard just can't warm to it, even without the deadened sound in high positions.

Further, after a few hours of playing, the boom box violin is sounding much more balanced, and also much sweeter especially in the middle strings. Don't know whether it's that he's trying harder to see how good he can make it sound, or whether it's the effect of several hours' playing (the shopowner seemed to have just got this instrument in and not looked at it yet, but he did say it "hadn't been played at all").

A curious thing...I frequently notice Italian labels with names that only ever come up in Japanese dealers, no matter what language I google them in - and some of them are SO prolific in the Japanese marketplace that you'd think that googling in Italian would bring up some reference is they were genuine. Well, the red violin is a case in point - the surname is a well-known name, but not with the first name on the label. I won't say more, since it's just a suspicion.

I've done some faux-finishing and varnishing myself, so I was curious about the thickish varnish on the red violin. I took a strong torch to it, and noticed that the rather curious flaming on the back is very little evident on the inside of the back (viewed through the f-holes). The flaming on the boombox violin, on the other hand, looks just about the same on the inside and the outside of the back. I'm also much more aware of who the maker is, and why his violin is priced the way it is (he's a Japanese living overseas, so probably has much less exotic ooh-la-la-ness to offer the Japanese buyer!).

So I think if Viohazard works a bit more on the G string high position sound and is satisfied with that, this may be his choice. The E string sounds OK, but not utterly sparkling and breathtaking (though to be honest, Viohazard's bow needs re-hairing, we were just waiting for the end of the humid summer weather to do it!) The red violin has more brilliance in the E string, but only in the lower positions.

Are there any advantages of living there? I mean, China I could see - Chinese food YUM!


I'd say that one is out then.


Could be either or both.


Italian made in China perhaps? O dear, surely not! (How much would it cost you to take a trip to China?)



So for 4k you get PAINTED ON FLAMING???????!!!!!!!

Liz

Well, it might be genuine grain but heavily emphasized through chemical treatment, or it might be a veneer, or it might be paint...

Anyway, the decision is made! Thye "boombox" violin made by a Japanese man in Milan, Santaro Ito, who trained in Parma. It's not one of his most handsome instruments, which may be one reason why it was so reasonably priced. The flaming is fairly broad and irregular, reminds me of a big old tabby cat, though I don't know what Viohazard thinks it looks like.

We asked the luthier to adjust it before Viohazard played it again with his teacher yesterday, and it really sounds very different from the way it did a week ago - at that point it looked like a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea!

This week, even his teacher preferred this one without hesitation. He felt that with better skills and more muscle, he wouldn't have problems. Right now from next door I can hear phrases in a silvery pp, echoed by warm passages and roaring sequences of double-stopping - sounds good!

The shop gave him a set of Dominants with a Goldbrokat E string to try instead of the darker Obligatos.

I scratch my head over some of the conversations that go on between Viohazard and his teacher.

T: What colours do you look for across the different strings?
V: A sharp yellow like light through stained glass, a candle flame, and folds of indigo cloth so dark it's almost black except for hints of blue and purple.
T: Yeah? Well, most of those colours are there, so change the E string to get a lighter yellow and I think this instrument will suit you.

or

T: Play something you like, anything! (Thinks, something violiny)
V: (Thinks, game music from various games he's never played but collects the soundtracks to)
T: Starting on all open strings? That's unusual, was the music fingered that way?
V: Music?
T: Oh, off a CD? Well, did the violinist sound like he was playing an open A?
V: Violinist? Doesn't singing sound like open strings?

Glad that's sorted then. As for the conversations, I don't know, perhaps I'm not really a musician after all or perhaps they just do things differently over there

Liz

Heh, sounds like V is blessed with a good imagination which can only be a good thing!