Hi,
I've recently started practicing shifting to 3rd position and now am learning grade 3 pieces from the ABRSM new syllabus...
I have been practicing 'oh mio babbino caro' which is all in 3rd position, does not require shifting.
I now have a sore wrist, it doesn't normally hurt in my normal day to day use, but when I put it into my 'violin playing position' it is sore, I can 'cope with it' so it's not too painful (left wrist of course).
I was thinking, is this because my hand/wrist have been practicing in a new position and I am not used to it or is it because I am doing something wrong? is it possible not to do anything wrong but get a sore wrist just because your wrist is playing in a position you have never used before and now it 'has to learn'??
sorry if it's a silly question by the way

ps: to make double sure I will get my teacher to 'check my position out' next time we have a lesson (although I have practiced this piece once with him before and he has not pointed out any defects in my position).

It may be due to the position change (3rd being a bit more 'scrunched up') but I've been doing studies in 3rd position for the last month and haven't noticed any soreness. As you've said, worth checking to make sure it's not incorrect hold/posture. I find 4th finger, particularly on G string, really uncomfortable!

I'm at the same stage as you and I've been getting a sore wrist too. My position changes are all 'on the move' (I'm using the old syllabus grade 3 pieces) and a couple of times I've sort of left my thumb behind when shifting (I know, how stupid is that but it happens!). Even when I play in first position just now I'm getting real pain in the muscles but I'm putting it down to tension because I'm a bit anxious about playing because I feel so frustrated with my progress. When I played duets on Tuesday there was no tension and no pain because I was completely relaxed and played really well.

Maybe check out your whole left hand position for any tension? Or try some background whale music and lavendar aromatherapy like I have in my practice room (I'm just being cheeky ) I know I'm not an expert but I'm tensing up in anticipation of shifting position just now - my Dmajor scale is still awful if I'm tense and better when my left hand is relaxed (although far from perfect).

Interestingly for the last few days I've been playing a full-size fiddle instead of my 7/8 and my intonation has been better and my wrist has been pain free!!! I'm cross about that because the 4/4 has to be handed back soon!

I've got a passage in one piece in second position and I can reach it and play ok on the first string (D string)but pitching the notes when I cross strings feels impossible (E string notes).

Why is this instrument so infuriating (but lovable )

Good luck with the wrist Jo, let me know if you find any solutions please.

Thank you LooneyTunes and Lottie,
when I first started playing violin I didn't get any soreness ANYWHERE! But I do know that some people get sore neck/wrist/arm etc as they are not used to be in the violin playing 'posture' and so they tense up. Maybe it was 'natural' to me and I didn't tense up and that is why I was ok, but maybe I am now tensing up in third position? At the moment it's not getting any worse so I might be ok. Will keep you posted

From your other posts, I've noticed that you have quite a lot on your plate at the moment. Not surprising really if you're a bit tense! All the best jojo.

It's really frustrating/upsetting when something you love doing causes you pain. When I first started playing in 3rd position, I think my wrist hurt a bit, probably because it was a new position and wasn't used to it.

This year, with one of the orchestras I'm in, we have to play in some absurd positions (I can't even tell what the notes are half the time ) and it really hurts, which I don't think it should. I mentioned it to my violin teacher and he said the key is in where you place your left thumb. Looney, you mentioned 4th finger on the G as being uncomfortable. You've probably already know this, but if you move your LH thumb more to the right, you should find that you can reach the notes easier.

I think tension can start when you begin with third position. When you are a complete beginner everything is hard and perhaps you have low expectations and can be relaxed about intonation and finger movements. As you get better you get very confident in 1st position as the hand is in the same place and the finger spaces are all familiar so the notes arrive in tune relatively easily. Once you start shifting all your points of reference are lost - thumb position, fingerspacing etc. This can lead to a feeling of insecurity and you can start to grip the violin. It sometimes feels necessary to press fingers harder in higher positions to get a good tone which can also lead to tension. Also 4th finger gets used more as there are less open strings. Repeated movement of the fingers when the hand is tense and gripping is a big source of wrist pain.

So try and keep the hand very relaxed and don't grip. Obviosly ask your teacher to check your posture but for self help check:-

that your left wrist is straight not tipping your hand backwards,

that you are bringing the left elbow properly under the violin so you can reach with 3rd and 4th finger without stretching the wrist - elbow comes further under in 3rd pos than in 1st I think,

look at how your fingers are pressing down in the fingerboard (esp the 3rd and 4th) - the last section from the last joint to the tip should be near vertical (requires the elbow to come well under especially on the lower strings) this enables you to get the string well stopped down with hand and arm weight alone without squeezing the neck hard.

A little test of finger position. With fingers on the string reach over with the bow and tap the fingers with the wood of the bow. You should get a nice clear tapping noise.


Another thing of interest to some perhaps. This newsletter has an article on how setup can effect left hand comfort. It is aimed at cellists but some of the info is applicable to upper strings. I am not suggesting at all that you start changing strings or setup jojo as I doubt that is the problem, but I thought it was quite interesting

http://www.aitchisoncellos.com/September07.pdf

Thanks for the advice, Miss Ross and earplugs. I have been told to shift my elbow under the violin for 4th but it doesn't come naturally (does anything with violin?! ) - inclination being to 'stretch' and having to remind myself to shift elbow under instead. Ho-hum - back to the old grind.......

Thank you Miss Ross and Earplugs,
in a minute I'll go and practice and will look out for my thumb position, wrist being straight, elbow well tucked under...
I will pay particular attention to not being tense as much as possible as well, which can be hard when you are learning a new piece and want it to sound in tune and smooth!
your advice was really appreciated, thanks for the link earplugs!
Jo

Also do check if your wrist had collapsed and bent inwards when you are in third position. Maybe thinking that you have to press harder on the strings so you are scrunching it up? I've also experienced the leaving-the-thumb-behind thing and yes, it can leave you with a bad stretched thumb although I'm not sure about wrist. Just do more shifting studies (like Neil Mackay's Position Changing for the Violin) and relax your hand when you are doing it. That book is really good. It will come naturally to you in time. It has some really tuneful and slow relaxing pieces which allow you to feel your way about.

Thanks violin-ann, I have that book of Neil Mackay's and I have done the first couple of pieces, I will pick it up again in the next few days and carry on with it.

I had a lesson tonight and my teacher tells me he cannot find any fault at all with my positioning, not even a teeny weeny one so we think it was all because of 'general tension' or maybe too much practice (I think I was tense as I have not practiced any more than usual, if anything I have practiced less in past few weeks).

it is now 4 days that I have a sore wrist and don't think so far is getting better.
I will start taking anti-inflammatories, I know I should 'rest it' but will I be able to????

I ventured into 6th position in my lesson today, which killed my wrist.

I can believe it, having experienced 3rd position problems I am now looking forward to 4th/5th and 6th
I 'think' my wrist is 'on the mend', today being the first day feeling an 'improvement' (I am still practicing and not resting, naughty I know)

What's killer for me now is the last stretch for the 3 octave D major scale. It's played in the 7th position with a huge stretch at the end. It's painful! Anyway...I do have a question. My teacher once told me that my fingers were supposed to be curved even when playing in higher positions but when I play in 7th position, my thumb's at the rib of the violin (since it can't stay at the neck due to small fingers!) and my 2nd and 3rd fingers are standing straight instead of curved. If it's on the lower strings, I don't think there's a problem. Any suggestions to remedy that?

jojo, shifting to new positions requires time to get used to. =) Think of how long your body took to get used to playing in the first position for you not to look at the fingerboard when playing! It's the same with every new position. Each position brings new challenges. I still hate playing 4th finger for 3rd pos on G string cuz it's so far away. I guess everybody here can't stress it enough...relaxation is the key. Keep at it. You'll get it soon!

[quote name='Andromeda_Aiken' date='Sep 20 2007, 04:00 AM' post='594587']
What's killer for me now is the last stretch for the 3 octave D major scale. It's played in the 7th position with a huge stretch at the end. It's painful! Anyway...I do have a question. My teacher once told me that my fingers were supposed to be curved even when playing in higher positions but when I play in 7th position, my thumb's at the rib of the violin (since it can't stay at the neck due to small fingers!) and my 2nd and 3rd fingers are standing straight instead of curved. If it's on the lower strings, I don't think there's a problem. Any suggestions to remedy that?
[quote]

mmmm..... if that's the only way you can do it then it is probably the only way it is meant to be with short fingers? I mean, what else can you do? stop playing violin? don't think so. I'd be happy to see from others if there is a solution...

[quote name='jojo' date='Sep 20 2007, 07:21 AM' post='594601']
[quote name='Andromeda_Aiken' date='Sep 20 2007, 04:00 AM' post='594587']
I do have a question. My teacher once told me that my fingers were supposed to be curved even when playing in higher positions but when I play in 7th position, my thumb's at the rib of the violin (since it can't stay at the neck due to small fingers!) and my 2nd and 3rd fingers are standing straight instead of curved. If it's on the lower strings, I don't think there's a problem. Any suggestions to remedy that?
[quote]

I have smallish hands too and play in all sorts of positions. Make sure you bring the thumb underneath as far as it needs to to avoid strain in the left hand. Also, tucking the left arm under a bit further and raising the left hand a little so that you can get further round the fingerboard will allow you to curve your 2nd and 3rd fingers.

Hope this helps.

Erm...if you tuck your elbow under, wouldn't that bring the left hand down instead of up? Also, when I shift to such high positions, my shoulder rest changes it's angle. It's soooo annoying! How do I remedy that? Lol. I use the Kun adjustable so the rest part which can 'rock' back and forth is the one that shifts. It shifts to accomodate me when I get to high positions but when I downshift, it ain't comfortable anymore.