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Canam
Here's a silly question but I wanted to make sure I knew what I was doing (hehe). When there is a combination of 2 articulation marks assigned to a note i.e. a staccato and a tenuto, how exactly does one execute it? Is it a short and detached sound, yet somewhat full? Any ideas are much appreciated!
petrat
It is a little difficult to answer this without seeing the example, but I would take it to mean that the note should be played for its correct length ie half the value of the written note, and not shorter. Sometimes composers use tenuto marks to indicate an accent too but I don't think that this would be the case here.
Dulciana
I'd take it to mean detached - i.e. with fresh air between the notes (assuming there's more than one like this in a row?) but with each one equally stressed, if stressed is the right word, implying that each consecutive note note carries the same importance and that you should make each one count.

IS there more than one of these in a row?
Canam
Yes, actually, there are 3 in a row on beats 2, 3, 4. (4 beat measure)
Thank you for your replies, this passage is from the 'Moonlight' Sonata, 3rd Movement, bars 58, 60, then 152, 154, then 191, and 193. If that helps.
Dulciana
QUOTE(Canam @ Sep 11 2007, 05:42 PM) *

Yes, actually, there are 3 in a row on beats 2, 3, 4. (4 beat measure)
Thank you for your replies, this passage is from the 'Moonlight' Sonata, 3rd Movement, bars 58, 60, then 152, 154, then 191, and 193. If that helps.

It's just that I'm not sure if I've seen this in isolation. Almost by definition, this kind of 'detached stressing' requires a few notes like that in a row for it to make sense. (Hope I'm making sense... unsure.gif )
By chance I've just printed the third movement of the Moonlight out from virtualsheetmusic.com tonight for my son, so I'll have a look at those bars tomorrow and tell you what I think - for what it's worth - it'll only be my opinion!
Robodoc
QUOTE(Canam @ Sep 11 2007, 06:27 AM) *

Here's a silly question but I wanted to make sure I knew what I was doing (hehe). When there is a combination of 2 articulation marks assigned to a note i.e. a staccato and a tenuto, how exactly does one execute it? Is it a short and detached sound, yet somewhat full? Any ideas are much appreciated!

I could be wrong but I don't think those are tenuto marks, they are accent marks, in which case there is no problem: Accented and staccato!
Canam

[/quote]
It's just that I'm not sure if I've seen this in isolation. Almost by definition, this kind of 'detached stressing' requires a few notes like that in a row for it to make sense. (Hope I'm making sense... unsure.gif )
By chance I've just printed the third movement of the Moonlight out from virtualsheetmusic.com tonight for my son, so I'll have a look at those bars tomorrow and tell you what I think - for what it's worth - it'll only be my opinion!
[/quote]

Thanks very much Dulciana and Robodoc, I appreciate your opinions!
You wouldn't happen to know of a textbook on piano performance practices (of varying eras) off hand? It's funny, and maybe sad, but after completing my B. Mus (back in '03), I have far more questions now which seem more applicable then when I was cramming for exams .....and then forgetting a large portion of what I learned. unsure.gif
Dulciana
QUOTE(Canam @ Sep 11 2007, 05:42 PM) *

Yes, actually, there are 3 in a row on beats 2, 3, 4. (4 beat measure)
Thank you for your replies, this passage is from the 'Moonlight' Sonata, 3rd Movement, bars 58, 60, then 152, 154, then 191, and 193. If that helps.


My printout doesn't have the staccato and tenuto marks in these places. What it has in bars 58 and 60 is staccato marks within a three note slur. So I wonder if this imples that these are two ways of writing the same thing - separated but not too short and sharp, and with equal weighting? It's the equal weighting bit that I'm not 100% sure about - maybe it depends on the context - but the reason I'm saying that is that this has seemed the obvious interpretation in any other music I've seen with this combination of staccato and tenuto. (I've never played the third movement of the Moonlight sonata myself.)

Do you have the AB Guide to Music Theory, Part 1? (It's pink.) If so, look at Page 85, where this type of thing is dealt with. It says of tenuto marks that "this sign has come to be used primarily as an indication of pressure or emphasis, which in practice entails a slight degree of separation between notes so marked. Consequently two crotchets with tenuto marks is similar to two slurred crotchets joined with a slur but rather weightier....................the combination of staccato dots with horizontal dashes increases the separation, ot to put it the other way round, gives more emphasis to the note marked with the dot."

wacko.gif

So I'd still sort of go with what I said earlier.

A good book to get for all sorts of interpretation in performance is Joan Last's "Interpretation in Piano Study". I can't find anything in it about this specific question, but it's a great source for lots of other things - what the written music requires, and how to actually do it.
Canam
That's interesting, the more I look at these particular phrases, they seem to have a sustaining quality asked of the repeated notes (with a separation that allows the performer to retract back into the keys for each repetition). The copy of this sonata is published by the ABRSM and has an interesting preamble by Donald Francis Tovey. He doesn't comment on the above mentioned bars specifically, but he does refer to bars 61 and 62 in which they seem to 'decline' to the end of the section - according to Mr. Edward Speyer, who possesses the very sketch of this passage by Beethoven. Anyhoo, in saying that, Speyer's observation IS his observation and perhaps this articulation thing is more about building up energy, than reducing. Sorry to make such a run-on sentence.
I tend to agree with you that the articulation combo gives substance to the chords and yet a separation must be honoured. In my humble opinion, I think the bars 57-60 are an augmentation of bars 61 and 62. Thus, in order to maintain a sustained sound with out the use of pedaling (or doubling by using the alberti bass as the left hand is) the repeated chords need a fullness, and a lightness to make ease for the listener smile.gif
I hope that makes sense! Thanks for your time by looking into this piece.

as an aside, my edition has slurs extending from beat 4 in bar 57 to beat 1 in bar 59.
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