An interesting day today, Finally got out and about to try a couple of Pianos...

The pair today were...Yamaha C7 and a Schimmel 213.

The Yamaha was very powerful, almost too powerful in the lower register, the tone throughout was as clear as glass and it was not overly bright...apart that is from the top which I felt was a little tinny...

As an instrument I felt the build was fair, very smart to look at but the iron frame looked cheaply done and the inner rim wood was fairly rough to the touch. The keyboard itself was something Yamaha call Ivorite, in laymans terms Plastic was ok but apparantly had grip which I found somewhat unsettling...the sharps were a composite of wood and I felt very poor...the actual top playing surface was smooth but then fronts were extremely rough and needed attention, this seemed to be a problem on almost all of the Yamahas I tried this morning...considering that this is the main part of the instrument that we have conatct with I felt that Yamaha really should have paid more attention to this tactile surface...maybe I'm being fussy but it wasn't cheap and let the Piano down badly.

The Schimmel...

Lovely tone throughout, nicely balanced ( this was a secondhand paino so well played in) the case work was in very good order and not marked a great deal it had plainly been taken care of. The biggest let down was the keyboard which had the smallest fall I have ever played on and the entire keyboard was plastic not a whiff of wood anywhere, even the sharps were cast plastic and felt ghastly under the hand, really ghastly and such a pity. Maybe I am being just a tad picky...but when you consider that Pianos cost thousands is it too much to ask that the one area of the Piano we touch i.e the Keyboard then surely it should encourage our hands rather than repel them...

The Yamaha though a good strong sound felt like sandpaper to the touch...

The Schimmel, lovely tone but was like an electric organ keyboard from the 70's

Manufacturers be warned...at these prices YOU COULD DO BETTER...

So where does that leave me...Well Steinways B and D, and a pair of Yamaha CFS111's to try next, possibly some Bosendorfers if they ever materialise ( I love the promises I have had from some dealers ) and finally some Bluthners which I gather are very special, so I am looking forward to trying them, and if nothing else because the staff at Bluthner seem like a riot, camp would be an understatement so I should fit in just fine...

The search continues..( ooooh its like an epic)

Kindest regards

Andrew

Does sound like a big job Andrew but you are doing it well by the sounds of it!
You are taking your time and thinking of all aspects, I am sure that when you make your decision you will be proud! we are all kept in 'suspence' now, can't wait to find out which one you'll pick!

Neither can I, sorry if its getting a bit tedious...

I am taking my time I know its the only way but what a task...

I did rather enjoy the Yamaha, it was a fine Piano and I am sure the roughness on the sharps could be attended to, and at the moment the Yamaha C7 is top of my list...I still have a few to try, Bosendorfers, Steinways, Bluthners but will narrow it down as swiftly as possible...I am also aware of the danger of paying for a name...

Hey ho it'll happen when it happens...

Kindest regards

Andrew

I wish I could play a Steinway

While it is unfortunate that the key coverings were so unpleasant you have to bear in mind that wooden sharps are made of ebony or blackwood.....increasingly rare tropical hardwoods that modern manufacturers are tending to avoid, just as they had to do with ivory.

I think the nicest keyboards to play on are ebony and ivory but you have to go back quite a few years now to find that. I also find celluloid 'whites' fell better to the touch than plastic but it looks cheap and is prone to chipping, and I don't think it is used at all now.

Yes I accept that, and its good policy, but they could make more of an effort with the composite woods which are in reality I suspect glued wood dust rather like MDF which with just a little effort can actually produce a very nice surface. The Ivorite wasn't too bad, not slippery like the old plastic and of course we musn't use Ivory, that would be unforgivable...lord can you imagine the righteous scandal if they used Ivory today...I shudder at the thought especially when we consider how much Ivory we used to use...its beyond modern comprehension...even mine.

I am sure I can find a Piano that addreses this aspect, I know some makers use fossil tusk, which I have never seen, I suspect it is sustainable and not taken at the expense of the donating animal or the animal rights people would be up in arms, but in truth without research I can't say anymore, I don't mind the Ivorite one bit but the rough old sharps need to be addressed.

Kindest regards

Andrew

I was lucky enough to play a Bosendorfer concert grand - worth £80 000 the other day. I loved the piano to be honest - but difficult to know whether I was influenced by the name. I mean - I've ALWAYS wanted to play a Bosendorfer.

The touch was wonderful - especially in the lower register. I wasn't convinced that the upper register had quite the warmth and power that I would have expected, but I was probably being fussy!

At £80,000 you have every right to be fusy I would say...

Yes there is a danger that we can be influenced by a name or perhaps the musical heritage of a brand or manufacturer and even they can make a "Friday afternoon" piano...it has happened!

How lovely that you got the oppertunity to play that wonderful Piano, what a treat... I have been promised some Bosendorfers to try (second hand) but as of yet they have not materialised so I am kind of not expecting them too. I still have to try Steinways and Bluthners and another Pair of Yamahas so we shall see.

Kindest regards

Andrew

You are in such a wonderful position - I mean being able to choose a piano from so many "super" quality instruments.

Yamaha C7 IS lovely really; I found it quite bright, but this could be the personal taste. The keys were responsive and I got used to it quite quickly. I needed a little more warmth in tone - as I play the piano everyday and it was going to be put in my lounge not a studio. In the end, I went for a Bluthner and I love it.

It may be an idea to take an another pianist with you so that you could listen when he/she plays and vice versa... Enjoy the piano hunting!

hero

Yes I am fortunate I know I am very grateful and its a wonderful posistion to be in

The Yamaha was as you said fairly bright but not as bright as I expected, it did have enormous power especially in the bass which was very impressive. The Bluthners are I gather very different to the others so I shall have to wait and see but I am taking another Pianist (good thinking on your part) with me of some repute to play them so I get two examples of playing, i.e my fairly ropey playing and their Concert playing...heck its a once in a lifetime chance so why not. The other side of the coin is however that the difference pricewise between the C7 which was an excellent price and the other makers leaves me a huge amount of money which could frankly be put to other use, maybe a new car for example...that is just an example but it gives you an Idea of the difference in price, and in all likleyhood is one piano really worth so much more than another if you get my drift especially when you consider my limited ability, the variation in price is staggering.

Anyway I will let you know what happens when I have played the Steinways and Bluthners, though why I am subjecting myself to all this hoo haa is beyond me, I'm really not very good by this forums standards and an old Plonk of a Piano would probably do but I would like a lovely instrument that I can play daily and have landed myself a serious Piano teacher in London which I am very excited about and seeing as my health has demanded that I am off my feet more these days I will have the time to practice and enjoy it...I don't however expect to set the Piano world on fire...though wouldn't that be a kick in the head if I did it is just for me and my planned chamber groups here at home with Carol Piano draped over the Ivories in something slinky bashing out the oldies but goodies, Mozart, Beethoven etc which should be fun.

Watch this space, all will be revealed...

Kindest regards

Andrew

Don't forget that a "name" only comes from years of consistently producing top quality, reliable equipment.

You don't pay extra because it has a "name", you are paying for something that is guaranteed high quality and reliable with a back-up that is second to none.

It takes years to get a "name", but one duff product can ruin it overnight.

So, buying a "name" you are definitely *not* paying over the odds for a name-badge, you are paying for a quality product that you can rely on and an excellent back-up should you ever need it.

Hmmm... I don't think I took that request into account when I gave you my quote for accompanying...

perhaps, but when you buy new you get it voiced to your requirements: Most new pianos are very bright before this is done.


Don't you believe it: I suspect that this forums standards range from superhuman down to extremely basic. What forumites mostly do seem to have in common is enthusiasm!

Hello Rob,

I will aim for superhuman then...it may take awhile

Thank god for Debussy, that was who I played when I tried the Pianos, nice and vague, lots of huge chords, not the most accurate performance but my hands kind of remembered their job but felt like lead...I had this pair of hands at the ends of my arms but I had no idea who they belonged to...they didnt feel like mine

The Voicing can be done yes you are quite right and any fine tweaking to get things set up for me can all be fine tuned...shall see what develops.

Kindest regards

Andrew

Well I have to say my heart belongs to Fazioli, ever since I saw one of their top-of-the-range jobs in Ferrari Red. My guess it that £80K might be enough to get a downpayment in on their waiting list

I see "Mr.B"

The trouble is, Like the Ferrari, the price crashes as soon as you haul your £80,000 piano out of the showroom...Faziolis are undeniably wonderful Pianos, they are however terribly fickle and go out of tune with alarming regularity, it has been known for them to require tuning in the intervals at concerts, this may well be because they are much much lighter in weight and therefore lighter in build, almost 300kg lighter for what its worth...useful when moving but you pay the price with stability...

Beautiful yes, but a difficult mistress I fear...mind you one in Bright Ferrari Red would be quite something...albeit a bit of a tart!

Ah, one could say they are the "carol" of pianos?

Oh sell me a beautiful Bluthner anyday, creamy mellow sounding things. An aquired taste- like Islay Malt, but worth aquiring.

Excellent instruments for accompanying sopranos... wonder why that might be important.

So they can drown the sopranos out?

That was a little harsh...I like Sopranos...Jesse Norman is my all time favourite...

Shame on you Scaramouche , poor Jod...

Hmmm... I disappear for the evening, only to find my name taken in vain in my absence...

Yes but not by me Miss Carol...


I wouldn't dare...

According to the Schimmel website "Synthetic ivory and genuine ebony wood sharps are available by special order" on the 213. Doesn't say how much, of course, and maybe if you have to ask the price.....

I rather fancy one of their alternative cases, myself. How about the Otmar Alt or the Pegasus in a colour of your choice and with an electrically operated lid lifting mechanism. Or there is always transparent.

You can even have a player mech fitted - now there's a thought! Save on practice and impress your guests!

Seriously, if a piano is too bright for your taste it is possible for a good technician to voice it down a bit. In any case they get brighter over time as the hammer felt gets impacted by playing - then it is time to call the tech.

Do NOT attempt this yourself as you will ruin the hammers, and replacing them is expensive

They *actually* call me that at the ballet school where I work!

You work? That's a good un

(*sorry Countess!*)

I should think so too!
Sorry Andrew - we are hi-jacking your thread with idiot behaviour...

That depends on the soprano!

There is something about the blend between a Bluthner and Soprano that is rather beautiful - its very warm and mellow.

Thank you Jod...a voice of reason amongst the Hi-jacking b%$^&rds...

Please Hi-jack another thread, may I reccomend one of the many "vote for this" or "vote for that" threads in the Forum cafe where you will find plenty of useless threads that can be obliterated of any sense I doubt they ever had in the first place with my deep joy and blessing..

Not complaining, you know I Love ya...but...pick on another thread please...

Ta ever so..

Kindest regards

Andrew

Hi there,

Petrof pianos have been highly recommended to me in the past, though I have to confess that I've never laid a finger on one.

http://www.petrof.cz/en/products/

The reason I mention these in particular is they have the option of a magnetically balanced action, where the touchweight can be easily adjusted to suit the pianist by the adjustment of magnets within the action. Faziolis also have this feature (though I read your comments regarding tuning stability - I didn't know that). As someone who has glued lead to various parts of my piano action to increase its touchweight I found this new development interesting!

Voicing was mentioned earlier. I'd like to add that the voicing I've just had done on my piano has made a absolutely jaw-dropping improvement to the tone (I had requested a dramatic drop in brightness). So if you find the piano of your dreams, but it's a little bright in the treble, then you shoud be able to have is modified to suit.

I don't know what I'd choose in your position. I suspect I would probably try out a load of pianos, agonise at length about the decision and then buy a Steinway D.

Good luck!

Thank you some pianist,

I have pretty much levelled the palying field to four and in no particular order of preference...Yamaha CFS111, Steinway D (poss B) Bluthner 2(poss 4) and as a wild card if I can get to try one I will field a Stuart and Sons as well but that is strictly a wild card, I would love one but they are as rare as hens teeth and not readily available here in the UK coming all the way from Australia. I have had to draw a close on the many other makers as I would dearly like to get this settled as soon as possible, the danger being that I could easily confuse the issue if I add more and more makers...

Thanks for the thoughts..

Regards

Andrew

So have you given up on Bosendorfers, then? My favourite piano of all time was a B'er Imperial. That was quite a while ago, though, and they are very expensive. ..... though you may find one going cheap that has "fallen off the back of a lorry"

My own piano is an old, reconditioned Bluthner upright which I love even though it is big and ugly. There is just something about the Bluthner sound which is special.

Good luck with your continuing search.

No one maker has been given up, but to be honest the dealer who annouced he could get me a lovely Bosendorfer has sent me one e-mail saying he is still trying but that was weeks back now and I havent heard a dickie bird since so I have moved on. I have a few to try, Steinways, Bluthners, Yamaha CFS111 and possibly a Stuart and sons....(Mega bucks) but I may go mad and buy one, but in truth Steinway or Bluthner seem the most likely. I havent heard a Bluthner in years so I am looking forward to trying a new one...

I'll keep you posted...

Andrew

Another thing I thought.... was that the sound may be different from the showroom once the piano is in your studio or lounge... Carpet or wooden floor, curtains etc,etc. Also the size of the room you are going to put your beauty in... But I guess you have to choose in the showroom.... not like any other instrument which you could have a "trial" period in your own home...

hero

Hello Hero,

Yes thats a valid point, the studio here is a good size about 70m2 with a vaulted ceiling rising to just over 16ft so fairly good acousticly. The floor will be wooden, probably oak so a good solid soundboard in itself. Apart from that there will be a sofa and large ceiling to floor curtains...thats about it absorbtion wise so the sound should remain very clear. There will be other bits like side tables, lamps etc and I am having floor plug sockets set in the floor itself so that music stands can be illuminated, am using the opera stands from RAT which are great...the whole place is being built right now so now is the time to get it right, its actually not that expensive as we are wiring the place anyway and is no different from any new build, easy to do when the building is being built but not so easy later on if you see what I mean.

Surely it would be lovely to trial a Piano at home but that is really not possible so I'll play in the showroom for awhile and make note of the serial number and even go as far as making sure the serial number of the Piano I buy is written on the reciept...you can never be too careful.

Anyway it will god willing be a done deal very soon, then I can settle down and realise that I have spent far too much money and I am not the Pianist I thought I was so had better get some practice in...I have a great teacher so it will be worth it in the long run...when its all done I'll post some pictures maybe if I can manage it.

Regards

Andrew

YES PLEASE andrew!

Oh, a Stuart and Sons! I assume that you know that Hurstwood Farm pianos have one, we're making a detour on our way to Wales to play it (and compare a Bosendorfer next to a Steingräber).

I am sure that whatever you decide on, it will be a wonderful piano.

How lovely, you are going to Hurstwood Farm, I shall definitely be paying him a vist...my only worry is that I will fall for a Stuart and sons Piano...can you imagine...Sell my granny, sell my soul, if the cash has to be rasied then Granny had better watch out .

Hope you enjoy your trip and the Piano detour on the way...

Regards

Andrew

I do and also don't envy you your choice.

At the end of the day, you've got to just want to drop whatever you are doing and go and play whichever piano it is that you choose, ...... NOW!

So, all reason and careful intelligent weighing apart, the right piano for you is the one that will most get you excited about playing it. It doesn't have to be an easily quantifiable reason - you will probably know intuitively which piano is right for you when you play it and get a 'spark' from it.

I've been wondering how you're getting on - thanks or the update.
Good luck, enjoy the search.

It's a difficult one, isn't it. Just recently I've played 3 Steinways. I LOVED one, quite liked the 2nd, and HATED the third.

You're doing such the right thing by taking your time. It's SO important to try them out - because it comes down so much to personal preference. Everyone can talk about the tone being too bright, or too woolly, but it need to be what you prefer.

What do you want the piano for - sorry if I'm asking you to repeat yourself. Is it for other people - ie very experienced people to play and for you to listen, or for your own playing? Is it mainly for solo playing or accompanying? These are all questions that I would ask myself IF I was lucky enough to have the room, and money for a new piano. Do you like a clear bright tone - warmth in the bass - a ringing upper register?

Ooh - wish it was my project!

If I had a room that size, I don't think I would sully it with a piano - a nice custom house organ would be _much_ nicer

The main use for the Piano is for me, I play and will be studying again under a teacher in London about 90 miles from home..there will also be chamber music, quartets, quintets and general music making...I hate TV so music is a far better use of my time

I am just plodding away trying Pianos, finding out what I like and what I don't, it s a slow process but will be worth it in the end...I hope..

I won't respond to the sullying my studio with a piano comment other than to say, I appreciate "MrB's" preferences but regret I must decline his kind suggestion..

That is indeed an extremely wise decision!

I've just spent the afternoon in a mill in Leeds (I'm sure you know whereof I speak) playing half a dozen Steinways (isn't it amazing how different two nominally identical pianos can be?) a few Bechsteins and a few other assorted instruments (including one from the 18th, yes, repeat, 18th century!). To my surprise by far the nicest to play (in the eye, ear and fingers of this beholder) was the black Bechstein in the far corner of the second floor - built in 1905ish (+ or - a year or so) and just reconditioned/rebuilt. A snip at only £14+k.

What was most surprising is the umpteenth rediscovery that a good piano is not only more pleasant to play but, for some reason I'm not sure I can explain, is actually easier to play: The notes seem to fall under the fingers in the right way more naturally and faster.

Hi Rob

yes I think I can guess where you were ...shan't name names here but I have a pretty good idea, did you try the two "D"s they have in one at a staggering 79k...3yrs old. the other at 40k...me thinks me smells a rat at 79k..."nicht sehr gut" possibly a shunt and shove Piano...and I would want to double check the serial number on that baby ...The Bechsteins sound wonderful, have never really considered them, always felt that they were somewhat "Parlour" type pianos but I am reliably informed that Elton "the Mincer" John recently took delivery of a Bechstein for his house here in England, yet he always plays either Yamahas or Baldwins when on stage...go figure that one. But your revelations about the 1904 Bechstein makes an interesting discovery... and a bargain at 14k...how big was it

You are of course quite right when you say that the right or good piano plays so easily, I would say that of almost any instrument, its so subjective but thankfully there seems to be the right piano for almost every hand, so there is hope for us yet to find the Pianos with our names on...


Sorry if this is a bit disjointed, long day, mind not overly sharp now, had a long Pow Wow with solicitors as selling a house nearby so I'm calling it a day ...wretched people ...now if only I had my Piano I could go and wind down with something lovely, something Glen Gould and Goldberg variation type...or equally some Elton "the Mincer" Johns music would not be too bad right now...

Thanks for the news of your day, it really took me out of my mindset and cheered me up no end..

Kindest Regards

Andrew

Sounds nice - now if it still sounds nice with a piano in it, I can put it on my (very) short list of good piano recording venues

John

That would be great as it sounds lovely. Let us know how you get one - I myself have a Steinway grand