I've been learning the jazz scales and I thought I would play the swing version in the same way that I played James Rae's "Passing Time" for my G3 clarinet exam, ie the quavers played as a crotchet/quaver triplet (if that makes sense). But I've been reading the Introduction to the AB Jazz Scales book and it doesn't give any instruction to that effect. It doesn't say anything about lengthening the first beat of the quaver, and in fact it says to add weight to the second beat. I'm not seeing my jazz teacher until the summer so if anyone can advise I'd be grateful. Are none of the notes lengthened?

There are a number of factors that make a piece of music "swing".

The first (and sometimes only) one that people tend to learn is the one you're talking about i.e. for swung quavers the first quaver in a pair is roughly twice the length of the second. BUT to make it swing there's a lot more than that. The next thing you need to work on is that although the second quaver is shorter in length it is the second quaver that is accented. Try playing the scales so that you tongue the off-beat quavers and slur on to the longer on the beat quavers (think Tie-Yah, Tie-Yah if that makes any sense written down). You want to work towards the tongueing being very legato, so that it barely stops the air stream but just places an accent on the off-beat.

Another thing about swing is that in a 4/4 bar it is beats 2 and 4 that are accented not 1 and 3. Last week the bass player was getting a bit of a work-out in the jazz class. He was playing a walking bass line i.e just 4 crotchets in a bar, so no chance of making it swing by altering the lengths of quavers. He was struggling with a tendency to "turn-round" the beat so accenting 1 and 3 and the teacher was really encouraging him to think and play 2 and 4. The difference in feel is incredible it moved from being very unhip to really swinging - and this was just crotchets.

When I first tried this after you'd posted, I thought OMG I'll never be able to do this! And it's only Grade 1! It seemed to go completely against the grain, but I think I'm getting the hang of it now. I've got a tendency to lengthen the offbeat as well as accent it, and I wouldn't normally do this but I've started watching my fingers to make sure they're moving as evenly as when I play straight quavers. Naughty I know, but I think it's helping as a short term measure.... Switching between this new offbeat style and the "normal swing" is difficult, but I guess that will come in time as well. Thanks for your advice, I feel as if I can practice the swing version now.

You wouldn't normally play a jazz scale for an exam in jazz quavers. Just play it straight - they just want to make sure you know your scales!

The AB exams expect you to be able to do them straight tongued, straight slurred, and swung. I forget the exact wording for the swung quavers though.

I played the swung ones tonguing on the short/offbeat quaver like TSax suggested (assuming I've understood TSax right of course!) in my exam - got 21 so must've been doing something right!

I think there's a limit to how well swinging can be described in words, I get the feeling it's something to hear and feel? I'm still working on it!

The Jazz Scales book does a pictorial explanation of what it expects for swung scales, which is what was confusing me because I've only come across the "normal" swing before. Now that TSax has described it, I do understand it better, but it's going to take a bit more practice than I expected for it to come naturally


Is "short" just a way of describing the offbeat quaver, or do you still lengthen the first note of the quaver, even though you accent and tongue the second note

Oops, I got it wrong with swung scales for AB jazz exams - sorry. My son did a Guildhall jazz exam and had to play them straight as far as I remember - which brings me to...when are either board going to introduce jazz exams for violn??? And why isn't it even on the agenda???

Vio: I wish they would, I could see myself taking violin exams if I got to play jazz That would be a lot of fun!



skyers: I just went to get my jazz scales book and I wonder if I've figured out where the confusion lies - that the notes are apparently written straight and they're talking about swinging them?

I don't know what it says in the clarinet book, but in the flute one it says:

-always make the crotchet pulse clear
-begin by things of swing as in a smooth, relaxed triplet feel, which varies according to the speed and style of the music played
-stress (add weight to) the offbeat, or reduce weight on (ghost) the on beat.

If the clarinet CDs are the same as the flute ones, they have demos of scales straight and swung after the music-minus-one tracks and stuff.

Am I making any sense?? Hope this is helpful. I think the triplet feel that you're thinking of is the right place to start, I don't think that the notes are terribly helpful...

I played the scales in my exam
1) with a basic triplet dum de dum
2) tongued on the de (offbeat) and slurred on to the dum (on beat) - so I suppose you could think of that as de-yum, de-yum
3) trying to accent the offbeat note

... and got 21. I think the weighting of the offbeat is in addition to the unevenness, not instead of.

Check and see, you may have demos at the end of your clari CDs.

I have heard "swing" that's relatively even to my ears, and swing that's very triplet-y - I think this is why it's hard to notate.

Hope this helps - I defer to these guys totally ^ but sometimes a fellow learner's perspective can help!

I think Sarah's got it just about the right.

The degree of swing, as in the uneven length of the quavers varies from player to player - generally the notes get more even the faster the music, so Charlie Parker playing fast bebop will play pretty much even quavers BUT the off-beat quaver is accented and it really swings.

The rule of thumb that's generally taught and where the triplety thing comes from is that the first quaver is long, like the first two of a set of triplets tied together and the second one is shorter (and accented!) like a single triplet, but it's generally notated as quavers. It does feel odd when you start playing like that if you're used to playing classical but it just takes practice and it becomes second nature. The other thing to watch out for is making the notes sound too "toytown" - this is when the note you tongue gets a bit too detached. It was described to me once as "You're playing rinky-tinky, I want dooby-dooby" so then I started thinking dooby-dooby and it got easier!

*phew*

Right I think I've got it.... I understand dum de dum, that's what I'm used to playing when playing jazzy pieces, so that's the first note longer than the second. But I'm not used to accenting the 2nd note, or tonguing the 2nd note. So I'll have to get used to doing de-yum de-yum. As well as dooby-dooby But I know exactly what you mean cos I think I tend to do rinky-tinky. Dooby-dooby sounds much cooler Thanks guys!


This conversation doesn't half make me laugh

Me too

At the end of the backing track CD's for each grade there are exampes of the how the scales and arpeggios should sound, so if you're really not sure you could try and get hold of one of these.

That sounds like a good idea as well, thanks

although the general concept of 'swung' quavers is that the second note is shorter than the first, I was interested to be told* it doesn't have to work like that. It is much more a case of moving the accent from the first to the second.
Instead of thinking 'dum de dum' etc try using 'doo bah doo' and so on. Because the 'b' is plosive it then has more accent on it -- I have found it works - and it works as an explanation to pupils.
Listen to lots of jazz teachers/players - they talk like that, they talk of 'doo - dah doo- dat' (and so on)!! Sounds like a different language





*Pete Churchill - look for him on lots of arrangements for AB jazz exams

Yes, if you listen to Dexter Gordon he quite often plays quite straight in terms of the length of the quavers over a hard swinging rhythm section, that plus th efact that he plays so far behind the beat gives it a really lazy feel.

One of our occasional guest jazz tutors regularly has us doing things like playing straight when the rhythm section are swinging and vice versa. It really helps to add interest to what you're playing if you can do that sort of thing. Problem is you have to be so in control of the pulse and where / how you're playing to have the freedom to move off it without everything falling apart! Something to aim for though.

Frank Sinatra meets the Teletubbies??

A barber shop group asked the new conductor did he want dum, dum, dum for the bass notes - he said no he wanted the same sound beginning with a b but don't come down hard!