One of the things I would really like to do is see if there are any other people locally who would like to join together in a "swing ensemble" - playing music from the swingtime era of the 1930s.

I've got quite of bit of sheet music from the period already, but what holds me back is the fact that I can't arrange music - I don't play the piano or any other instruments and I'm only just about to take G3 Theory, so even the principles - let alone the ability - of arranging music are a mystery to me at the moment. Can anyone advise me whether arranging parts is something that Sibelius or Finale can do - I'd need to be able to supply parts both for different instruments and different abilities. Or am I trying to run before I can walk??? Thanks for any advice.

Both Finale and Sibelius are very helpful whenever you want parts and a score that corresponds to them exactly. However, depending how big your ensemble is, arranging involves a lot of decision making, and the ability of a computer program to aid your decisions is limited. Both these programs help you keep parts within the range of the instrument. Sibelius is more immediately helpful here, because it "knows"* what the ranges are and turns notes outside them red, whereas you have to ask Finale what the range of a part is, and compare that with your own knowledge of the instrument.

* This is fine if you happen to be writing for a standard instrument, but some instruments (e.g. double basses, bass clarinets, saxophones, horns, trombones) come with a variety of lowest notes.

I use Finale with a MIDI keyboard for input. You don't have to be a good pianist for this to be helpful. In particular, playing at a constant speed to a program created click is only one of the input modes. I use two others. In one mode, my left hand selects the pitch on the MIDI keyboard and my right selects the duration on the computer keyboard. In the other, useful when there is a long succession with the same duration, I set that on the computer and play the passage (not necessarily in strict tempo) on the MIDI, getting one note per key strike.

I have never tried to arrange music with Sibelius but I have played from music arranged by someone using Sibelius and I am not overly impressed.

The music school's windband is playing an arrangement of West Side Story. All the music has been arranged by the trumpet teacher (who also conducts) and the clarinet teacher - so theoretically two competent musicians. A lot of the parts have ended up in the wrong octave (conductor claims he doesn't know why they printed out like that as they weren't shown like that on the computer). Also there are a lot of unjustified enharmonics which makes sight-reading hard.

There is also the problem of knowing what is technically (as opposed to theoretically) possible on other instruments. Just to give one example, it is easier to tongue fast on a flute than on an oboe. When I took one piece to my oboe teacher to ask for help, his initial reaction was "What's this rubbish? Are you sure it's the oboe part?"

I used Finale to arrange a piece for the wind band at church: 2 or 3 (I forget... maybe more??!) separate sax parts, 2 flute parts, 2 clarinet parts. It certainly made it a good deal easier to do and play back (especially with three different transpositions happening ) but the actual arranging - ie working out who was playing what, what range was appropriate, etc, was me. So it maybe depends exactly what you want the programme to be able to help you with. It's certainly vastly easier when you don't have to work several different transpositions by hand and brain! (This was with free Finale by the way. If you like, if I can find the score I can send it to you (you'd have to download the free version of Finale to read it) if that would help you work out whether it would be useful)

I'm not usually overly impressed with the presentation on sibelieus, and the ranges on it are generally geared towards beginners - for example, on the clarinet the top range apparently finishes at the g on top of the stave, which is fine for beginners but plenty of more advanced clarinettists can easily play much higher than this. But it is useful for playing back of the parts, and doing the actual transposing.

I think you need to think of the music publishing programmes as just that mosty... publishers.
As with somehing like Microsoft Wrod you need to be literate in a languge whit a music publisher it helps if you are musically literate.

As has been mentioned already it's no good just to prees the buttons and expect the right tihing when doing something like transposition, you need to check that it makes musical sense too (I'm thinking about the example of unhelpful enharmonics).

With arranging you have to do the actual arranging and the software helps with the layout.

A point to be considered with notation programs is that you have to learn a lot about them to make them behave properly and avoid their traps.* Consequently, they save you time only if you have a lot of music to produce; a single small piece might be quicker to produce in manuscript.

* For instance, there are two ways in which you can make Finale transpose. One of them is to select a passage, go to the transposition tool and choose an interval. The other is to set the charateristics of a stave to be that of a transposing instrument; then every passage that is transferred into that stave is transposed to make it sound at the correct pitch. I have never noticed the second way producing enharmonics, but the first can be made to do so: if you ask for transposition by a diminished second, the passage will be turned into one of its enharmonic equivalents.

Actually there's a third way through the Mass Edit tool.....

In Sibelius 4 there is a feature called Arrange where you copy the bit you want to arrange for different instruments such as some piano music. If you then select Arrange from the menu it gives you several different options such as arrange for brass, or choir, or band etc... I've tried it and its fairly intelligent - you do need to go and tidy bits up and change things sometimes and you also have to do it in sections or it goes a bit mad - its quite a useful feature though. Having said that its probably easier to arrange it by hand.

Hope this explanation makes sense

I think that you could have a bash at this. It is a good hands-on way to learn, even if the first ones need lots of revision. Finale will help you to produce good copies and you will be able to hear what you write, and have written, and also be able to extract individual parts to print off for your players.
Begin with something simple and short. Choose your group of instruments, perhaps just a trio to start with, and get writing! You can always add more instruments later if you become more ambitious.
Write out the melody for your top instrument, just as it is written in the piano score. If you are arranging a song it will be easy to do this, but if not just look for the melody notes above each chord.
Then decide what instrument you will choose to play the bass line. With Finale you can choose to write in concert pitch at first and then do the transpositions needed at the push of a button later. It may well help you to hear what you are writing. Then you will need to add some of the middle notes to fill out the inner part or parts. If you get in a knot doing this, just try some to see how it sounds! Trial and error method! As you are doing grade three theory how about looking at the London College of Music exams in composition too? If you worked through the first few grades you would cover arranging music as a part of the course. Great fun!

That's my first way. The transposition tool I meant is inside the Mass Edit. Is there another that it could have been?

Thanks for all the replies. It all sounds a bit scary - but in an exciting sort of way From the sound of it though, I don't think I can manage this on my own, so I've rung a teacher locally who specialises in arranging to ask whether he could teach me at my level. He said he'd normally expect somebody to be Grade 5 on their instrument, but he was in the middle of band rehearsals at the time so he's going to ring me back to talk about it. He mostly does it by hand, but uses Sibelius if he wants to hear what it sounds like. I asked him about the clarinet not going above the G on the top line with Sibelius but he didn't seem to think that this was the case. Perhaps it's just with the Lite version that that happens? It seems like a major flaw if that's the case.

I could be 3 years or more away from Grade 5 It's not as if I want to arrange orchestral music, it's only relatively simple song work so hopefully he might think he can teach me.

On some of the points people have mentioned, it would be great to get a MIDI system some day. The other day I played along with somebody who has a MIDI system - he'd pre-recorded the piano parts so that he could play with me on clarinet and it sounded great, with all sorts of special effects But like everything else, there must be a huge learning curve to get to the stage where you can do that.

I take on board the comments about what is technically possible rather than theoretically possible, and also that a notation program is a tool for the initiated rather than a magic wand. I need a teacher....

Sarah, thanks for the offer about the Finale piece. I'm tempted to take you up on it, but if I get a teacher who uses Sibelius, then I'll no doubt get Sibelius as well because I'm sure I'll need as much help with the program as with the actual arranging

Petrat, composition interests me and I'd like to learn more about it. I've written some music for a couple of songs but I stress that they're very, very simplistic and just for fun. So yes I'd like to do what you suggest, but I can't take on more exam studying just at the moment, much as I'd like to I think it's more likely to work the other way with me - if possible. As in, I learn how to do simple arrangements first, which gives me a head start when I come to do composition.... Not sure if that will work, it may be the wrong way round

Thanks again everyone, and I'll report back on what the arranging teacher says

I think even if this is the case it's likely to be only something that the programme would highlight as a possible error rather than that you can't actually write notes outside the recommended range.

It's just something that can happen with a programme that thinks it knows stuff.
Mine isn't like that. It's for people who know how to write the music and totally self formatting... you can break rules if you want to quite easily.

No worries skyers!

If you think it might be useful then it's possible to download free Finale and have a look, but I shan't be offended if you don't take me up on it!!!

The teacher rang back a little while ago and he's happy to see if he can teach me what I need to know. We've both got a lot on until the middle of June, so I'm going to get in touch with him later in June and see how it goes

Have a look at the LCMM composition grades sometime Skylark. You will see just how useful the arranging section is. Why not have a go at arranging a part of one of the pieces before the lesson too? You can do a lot of planning with a photocopy of the original and a pencil to jot down what instruments could play what bars.

I've watched it protest as I wrote an A .. It highlights it in a rather annoying red that made my eyes go funny, but it did let me do it. However I have seen people simply take it as a be all and end all of the clarinets range which really annoyed me, even someone who is an accomplished musician.

I've had a look at the demo and I know what you mean about the red highlighting. It does seem a bit odd if it doesn't know the clarinet range ...



I've had a look at the LCMM syllabus and it does interest me - but not just at the moment! Jazz clarinet is my next exam series (I'm going to have some lessons this summer, with a view to doing my first exam in the autumn session), alongside Practical Clarinet and Theory exams. I think I've reached my exam limit for the moment Get thee behind me petrat, stop tempting me!



I think I could have a go at doing something with a piece before a lesson. I've got a couple of composition books which show the ranges of the instruments, so I think if I stick to 3 or 4 reasonably familiar instruments from the wind family, I might be able to do something....

Sibelius 4 (I don't know about earlier versions) actually has two ranges for each instrument; the technically possible range, and the comfortable range. Going above a G (as mentioned) will turn the note a bright red, as a warning that the note is getting above the 'comfortable range' of the average player - useful for the majority of us who are writing for less-than-professional players.

Keep going up, and once you start using notes which are actually technically impossible on the instrument, the notes go a darker shade of red. The two different shades of red are not too easy to tell apart unless you see them next to one another, but Sib4 does at least know the actual range of the instrument.

In any case, these colourings are simply a warning; they print black, they don't affect the playback, and there is nothing to stop you using notes out of range.

Thanks for clarifying that Tom - that actually sounds quite clever