I'm just starting to learn the jazz clarinet scales, which include "Dorian on D to a fifth" and "Mixolydian on G". The scales themselves aren't a problem, but what IS a Dorian and a Mixolydian scale, as in "what are the defining characteristics"?. And why are they used in jazz?

I won't be having jazz lessons until the summer and my Eric Taylor theory book isn't helpful, so if anyone can give an explanation, I'd be grateful

Off the top of my head, I think Dorian is D to D on the white notes (ie no accidentals, so a natural minor scale with sharpened sixth,) and I think Myxolydian is G to G similarly - (so in other words the major scale with a flattened seventh.)

Not feeling too bright this morning, and I'm not sure if jazz versions of these scales are different, so maybe a jazz expert could confirm ?

(ed) sorry - realise I'm describing them in keyboard terms - maybe could be clearer -
Dorian, DEFGABCD
Myxo, GABCDEFG

These are runs of notes known as modes. They can be transposed into other keys as long as the same pattern of tones and semitones is kept. Two tunes that you may well know written in these two modes are "She Moved Through The Fair" (dorian mode) and the Beatles' song, "Eleanor Rigby" (mixolidian mode). EDIT OOPS, no they aren't! I meant to say that I thought that "She Moved Thriygh the Fair" was mixolidian but I put them the wrong way around. Cyrilla has corrected me so please ignore this! It is a very long time since I listened to any Beatles.

Dorian and Mixolydian are modes of the major scale. By modes I mean that they have the same notes as the major scale but start and finish in a different place. Dorian starts on the 2nd degree of the major scale, D is the 2nd degree of the C major scale, so D Dorian is the notes of the C major scale starting and finishing on D. Mixolydian is the 5th degree, so the notes of C major starting and finishing on G is G mixolydian. The full list of modes is

1 - Ionian (i.e. the major scale)
2 - Dorian (most common minor scale in jazz)
3 - Phrygian
4 - Lydian
5 - Mixolydian
6 - Aeolian (natural minor, or descending form of melodic minor)
7 - Locrian

Although referring to the major scale is one way to work out the notes you need to be a bit careful, you want to think of D dorian as a D minor scale, and not a C major scale. I find that the best way to internalise the scales is to remember their differences from the major scale, so Dorian scales have a flattened 3rd and 7th, so D major has F# and C#, flatten the 3rd and 7th and they become F and C natural i.e. the notes of the C major scale. Mixolydian has a flat 7 - for G mixolydian flatten the 7th degree of G major i.e. F# becomes F natural.

I was going to put that into words ^ but got myself in a tizz so decided ..perhaps when I'm more awake!

I found solfa an invaluable tool for understanding the modes (although you do really need to be familiar with solfa first so what I put next may just fox you entirely if you're not...).

There are three major and three minor modes.

The Ionian is the basic diatonic major (d r mf s l td').
The Lydian is like the Ionian but with a raised 4th (d r m fi s l t d').
The Mixolydian is like the Ionian but with a flattened 7th (d r mf s lta d').

The Aeolian is the basic natural minor (l, t,d r mf s l).
The Dorian is like the Aeolian but with a raised 6th (l, t,d r m fis l).
The Phrygian is like the Aeolian but with a flattened 2nd (l,ta, d r mf s l).

The Locrian is the odd one out because of the diminished 5th and the fact it has two 'altered' notes. It is also very rarely found in musical examples.

Describing them in the above way makes the relationship between the modes very clear and easily transposable (I'm afraid having them described as 'the white note scales' only served to make them as clear as mud to me ).

Of course you can also describe them in the 'authentic solfa' eg r mf s l td' r' for the Dorian mode.

Petrat, I think 'She Moved Through the Fair' is Mixolydian? And 'Eleanor Rigby' is basically major but with a strong Lydian flavour in parts? Forgive me if I'm wrong here.

I the modes!!!

Yes I understand now, thank you everybody for the explanations.

Cyrilla I don't know solfa but I did understand the descriptions, thanks!

Aw, glad it made sense, skylark!

I found this scales ear trainer quite helpful - you can set which modes is chooses from and try to spot the one it's playing

http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id91_en.html

earplugs I saw this site months ago and I've often wished I could find it again, but I had no idea what to search for, or even how to ask on the forum about it because I only had a hazy recollection of it. I'm so glad you've given me the link, thanks ever so much


I this forum!

To be fair, I did go back and edit that description a few minutes after posting ... as I realised it may make sense only to keyboard players.

I did say 'forgive me if I'm wrong' - am I totally off-beam here, sonataform? The beginning is certainly Lydian but then it loses the raised 4th - do please enlighten me if (as usual) I'm talking complete and utter bananas!

No no, it was just the "basically major" bit that confused me. Ignoring modes briefly, surely Eleanor Rigby is basically minor?

Sorry, I often speak before I think and hadn't gone through it in my mind enough before I posted! Um, it's a tricky one, isn't it? Loads of phrases are minor but in the end it finishes on 'doh'....*goes off to ponder some more* Hmmm, if it is basically minor then the phrases at the beginning are Dorian rather than Lydian *ponders still more*

Cyrilla, with all due respect Eleanor Rigby major?!? I trust you were having a minor brainstorm when you wrote that. It's one of the saddest tunes I've ever heard, and it was most definitely composed around the dorian minor!!!

In other words, think of 'Rig' as the minor third, making it 'fa'.

It's ok Violinia I often have brainstorms!

Don't have the printed music, am just going through it in my head (not always a reliable place to be!). It's just that I heard the beginning as d r m d l,/ d r m s fi m fi m r m r d r/ d r m f m and also heard that the very last note is doh so I stupidly thought 'Ah, major with Lydian 4th' without thinking it through.

I find Dorian is often easier to hear using lah with fi rather than re as the tonic so that's why my 'Rig' is do rather than fa but of course it can be re if you use the authentic solfa.

*Goes off to dig very large hole for self*

Sorry, guys, too many hassles in my life at the moment for me to be able to think straight at all - will now crawl into a corner and stop talking bananas.

Trying eating bananas instead, C, the potassium is supposed to be calming for the brain!

We're all allowed the odd totally random mistaken comment m'dear! don't hide in your hole too long, we'd miss you

No worries, Cyrilla - we're just being a bunch of tiresome pedants today - or I am.

Violinia

In which case how can you have a dorian "minor"? The hypodorian perhaps?

I love this forum too

The dorian scale IS minor, is it not... it has a flattened 3rd.

I love the modes too. One of the things that we have been focusing on heavily during our studies here at the Kodaly Institute are the modes. Singing them is amazing and when they are sung in canon either two, three or four part as we have done, the most beautiful sound is produced.

Fantastic!





Dorian is minor for sure.

*phew* not talking nonsense

He he. Nor me, except that I put the two tunes that I quoted as examples the wrong way round.

a bit like the guy who declared he could never tell God save the weasel from Pop goes the King
?

That's me!

I think it's "Dorian" i.e. not major or minor but "Dorian".

There's scope for confusion as the terms are used differently in old church music / modern jazz.

Yes, but the dorian mode is also a minor mode, because the 3rd is flattened. It is not a minor in terms of "it's a harmonic minor" or whatever, but the dorian, ie what you will get if you start on D and play an octave of white notes, is considered a minor mode I believe. (As Aeolian is a minor mode AND the natural minor AND the descending melodic minor)

That's interesting because when I looked at the "ear trainer" site that earplugs recommended, it had the modes down for "church" music and I didn't know why. And can anybody elaborate on why they suddenly jumped from church into modern jazz (is that modern as in "contemporary jazz" rather than meaning the modern era as opposed to earlier centuries?)

There's scope for confusion as the terms are used differently in old church music / modern jazz.

Thanks Stumac, this is exactly what I was thinking might be the case when I wrote post number 2.

Skylark, I don't think I know the answer to "why".

As far as I understand it (and I'm not an expert!!) there is considerable difference between what we know as modes, and what the Greeks named them, but the dorian a la the church and the dorian jazz musicians use is the same. I'm no expert however.

Does anyone know Gigi, the musical? Are some of the runs in that song part of a Dorian scale does anyone know... they sound like the Dorian to a fifth that I've been practising


The consensus earlier in the thread seemed to be that Dorian scales started and finished on a D, but the jazz scales book has them on E, and C, and B And why are they sometimes all natural, sometimes with 2 sharps, sometimes 3 sharps, and sometimes 2 flats

Are there any books that explain all this, does anyone know???

The Dorian is the pattern of tones and intervals that you get if you play D-D on a piano using all white notes, but that pattern can start anywhere. As long as it has the same pattern of intervals (tones and semitones) it will be effectively a Dorian scale/mode.

What Sarah says is right. For my Intermediate group's exam next Wednesday they have to be able to sing the letter names of any mode, starting on either D or A, and also to be able to sing and play any mode in canon, starting on either of these two pitches.

I've just worked it out and I understand perfectly now!!! So the pattern is TSTTTST, and I've tested it with G, E and B scales and that pattern works. Thank you teach!


Best of luck with your exam students Cyrilla, from what I've heard about your teaching I can't imagine that they'll be anything other than absolutely fine!

You'll be pleased to know that I've got a mnemonic as well - Teacher Sarah Terrifically Teaches The Scales Theory